Anyone doing websites? Rob Lohman pls.. at DVinfo.net

Federico Dib · January 18th, 2004, 03:03 PM

Hi, I don´t know if this is the right forum. Maybe taking care of business?

http://www.stormmodels.com

What do you think a page like this one is worth?
Just:
-Graphic Desing.
-Programming (in PHP-MySql).

(I called Rob in the title since I know you work in this... and being in Europe I might get a Euro aproach).

Rob Lohman · January 18th, 2004, 04:08 PM

It's fine here. Worth of a site is hard to express. It depends on
a lot of factors. I don't design websites but I build the technical
framework for large corporations. That's a different game. Those
are made to the exact specifications of the client and usually
involve a quality content management system with special build
extensions on the back and frontside of the system. Designs
are specially made for the client and then everything is fitted
together.

So basically I'm doing the second thing on your list (programming)
with a lot of consultency.

Back to your question. It looks like you did a neat job on the
programming and that's definitely worth the most (since it
effectively brings what the people are looking to the screen).
Personally I'm not too fond of the graphic design. Especially
the first page is hard to read (and I'm reading it on a good TFT
screen) and is not used that much anymore in website design.
In other words, a lot of companies now begin with a page that
has all sorts of information as their entry page. Sort of like a
portal. Check out the large corporations to see what I mean.

It's really hard to give a price to it. If it is using custom components
then it's probably under 10.000 Euro's. If custom build it can go
up, especially if there is a good management system on the
backend (to manage all the portfolio's, pictures and possible
responses).

Adrian Douglas · January 19th, 2004, 07:42 AM

Fredrico,

I'd be carefully with the "Get Flash" button, one of the conditions for it's use is that it is not modified in any way, which I imagine would include desaturation.

I also agree with Rob on the design. The monotone scheme is nice but maybe darken the light grey text a tone or two as it is difficult to read on the white background.

Federico Dib · January 19th, 2004, 08:11 AM

Oh.. sorry If I didn´t explain myself.. I did not make this page..

But I have a client that want´s me to do something like that. Not graphically but more in functionality..

I´ll be doing the whole programming in PHP-MySql, and I have a graphic designer, he allready knows what to charge.

The thing is (to make a long story short) that I´ve been working without working permit.. and thus I´ve been underselling my services for so long that I´m a little lost.

Now that I have my working permit.. and everything is going to be legal.. I want to see how undersold I am. To try and raise my income to a fair ammount.

And yes.. It will be custom built for their needs...

Thanx

Rob Lohman · January 19th, 2004, 10:33 AM

I already figured it out that you hadn't made it halfway through
writing my own post. Anyway, the points are still valid.

Again I find it real hard to tell you how much you can charge.
Normally you either charge by the hour (dangerous for the client,
normally you specify around how many hours are going to be
spend with the given specification) or set a complete price
for the whole project (dangerious for you). It all boils down to
how many hours you will work on the project.

Don't forget the taxes and things like that. It might be interesting
to know what the designer is charging. You should have way
more work, so that amount mulitplied by the longer you are
working might be a good indication as well.

Federico Dib · January 20th, 2004, 10:23 AM

Well I did a few estimate budgets for myself before showing to the client...

I know that charging for worked hours is not acceptable by the client.. I wouldn´t either if I was a client.
This is not like shooting a show... I mean, no one should pay if I get a "programmers-block". For this kind of projects I like better the payment for delivery... or for achieved goals...

Still I did a guesstimate of amount of hours I´ll put into that job... and charging around €10 an hour just to be on the low side, since it´s my first -Inside the law- client and all, and then added taxes, and a few other typicall expenses, and then rounded it "down" to one nice "I-don´t-get-screwed-client-neither" budget.

I thought I was on the low side and the Client almost freaked out...

I did a flash site a while back for them... and they couldn´t believe that this one would be more expensive...
They say:
QUOTE: "There´s no animations or music on it.... just plain pages. How can it be more expensive then?"...

Oh well, I guess I´ll have to go and explain what a dynamic site is... I don´t think they even understood what I meant when I told them they could manage the content of the site.

Anyway, just sharing...
thanx for your replies...

Rob Lohman · January 20th, 2004, 01:41 PM

That's a typical problem. Clients don't understand what they
want. We've found that the best way to make them understand
is to write down all the things you are going to do for them,
detailed. A database must be designed. Upload tools with
restrictions build. etc. etc.

Good luck Federico!

Witold Chrabaszcz · January 22nd, 2004, 01:30 AM

(I built a few web sites back in the day, but nowadays, I'm mostly on the buying side.)

If the web site is meant to be functional, there should be no Flash/Macromedia in sight. At minimum - if it is used - there needs to be an alternative or a skip button. From my experience, 99% of the time, Flash adds nothing except higher bandwidth requirements. This particular web site is one of the better examples of Flash, but it still doesn't justify it. Everything on that site can be done without it.

That said, it is hard to judge the value of a website, especially without seeing the backend. My advice is to spend an hour figuring out your costs and the amount of time it will take you to create such a site. Determine the value of your time, and write down your total cost. Then consider who you are selling to, and try to determine their budget. In light of your costs, time, and your client's budget, you can throw out some realistic figures.

Further, avoid selling your services based on price. You need to demostrate to the vendor that you are useful to them as an business individual and not just a techie. If you sell yourself as a techie, prospects will see you on the same level as some of the ultra-cheap E. European labor.

January 18th, 2004, 03:03 PM	#1
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	Anyone doing websites? Rob Lohman pls.. Hi, I don´t know if this is the right forum. Maybe taking care of business? http://www.stormmodels.com What do you think a page like this one is worth? Just: -Graphic Desing. -Programming (in PHP-MySql). (I called Rob in the title since I know you work in this... and being in Europe I might get a Euro aproach). __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

January 18th, 2004, 04:08 PM	#2
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	It's fine here. Worth of a site is hard to express. It depends on a lot of factors. I don't design websites but I build the technical framework for large corporations. That's a different game. Those are made to the exact specifications of the client and usually involve a quality content management system with special build extensions on the back and frontside of the system. Designs are specially made for the client and then everything is fitted together. So basically I'm doing the second thing on your list (programming) with a lot of consultency. Back to your question. It looks like you did a neat job on the programming and that's definitely worth the most (since it effectively brings what the people are looking to the screen). Personally I'm not too fond of the graphic design. Especially the first page is hard to read (and I'm reading it on a good TFT screen) and is not used that much anymore in website design. In other words, a lot of companies now begin with a page that has all sorts of information as their entry page. Sort of like a portal. Check out the large corporations to see what I mean. It's really hard to give a price to it. If it is using custom components then it's probably under 10.000 Euro's. If custom build it can go up, especially if there is a good management system on the backend (to manage all the portfolio's, pictures and possible responses). __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 19th, 2004, 07:42 AM	#3
Adrian Douglas Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Chigasaki, Japan. Posts: 1,660	Fredrico, I'd be carefully with the "Get Flash" button, one of the conditions for it's use is that it is not modified in any way, which I imagine would include desaturation. I also agree with Rob on the design. The monotone scheme is nice but maybe darken the light grey text a tone or two as it is difficult to read on the white background. __________________ Adrian DVInfo.net Search for quick answers Where to buy? From the best in the business...DVInfo.net sponsors

January 19th, 2004, 08:11 AM	#4
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	Oh.. sorry If I didn´t explain myself.. I did not make this page.. But I have a client that want´s me to do something like that. Not graphically but more in functionality.. I´ll be doing the whole programming in PHP-MySql, and I have a graphic designer, he allready knows what to charge. The thing is (to make a long story short) that I´ve been working without working permit.. and thus I´ve been underselling my services for so long that I´m a little lost. Now that I have my working permit.. and everything is going to be legal.. I want to see how undersold I am. To try and raise my income to a fair ammount. And yes.. It will be custom built for their needs... Thanx __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

January 19th, 2004, 10:33 AM	#5
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I already figured it out that you hadn't made it halfway through writing my own post. Anyway, the points are still valid. Again I find it real hard to tell you how much you can charge. Normally you either charge by the hour (dangerous for the client, normally you specify around how many hours are going to be spend with the given specification) or set a complete price for the whole project (dangerious for you). It all boils down to how many hours you will work on the project. Don't forget the taxes and things like that. It might be interesting to know what the designer is charging. You should have way more work, so that amount mulitplied by the longer you are working might be a good indication as well. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 20th, 2004, 10:23 AM	#6
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	Well I did a few estimate budgets for myself before showing to the client... I know that charging for worked hours is not acceptable by the client.. I wouldn´t either if I was a client. This is not like shooting a show... I mean, no one should pay if I get a "programmers-block". For this kind of projects I like better the payment for delivery... or for achieved goals... Still I did a guesstimate of amount of hours I´ll put into that job... and charging around €10 an hour just to be on the low side, since it´s my first -Inside the law- client and all, and then added taxes, and a few other typicall expenses, and then rounded it "down" to one nice "I-don´t-get-screwed-client-neither" budget. I thought I was on the low side and the Client almost freaked out... I did a flash site a while back for them... and they couldn´t believe that this one would be more expensive... They say: QUOTE: "There´s no animations or music on it.... just plain pages. How can it be more expensive then?"... Oh well, I guess I´ll have to go and explain what a dynamic site is... I don´t think they even understood what I meant when I told them they could manage the content of the site. Anyway, just sharing... thanx for your replies... __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

January 20th, 2004, 01:41 PM	#7
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	That's a typical problem. Clients don't understand what they want. We've found that the best way to make them understand is to write down all the things you are going to do for them, detailed. A database must be designed. Upload tools with restrictions build. etc. etc. Good luck Federico! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 22nd, 2004, 01:30 AM	#8
Witold Chrabaszcz New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: rtys Posts: 12	(I built a few web sites back in the day, but nowadays, I'm mostly on the buying side.) If the web site is meant to be functional, there should be no Flash/Macromedia in sight. At minimum - if it is used - there needs to be an alternative or a skip button. From my experience, 99% of the time, Flash adds nothing except higher bandwidth requirements. This particular web site is one of the better examples of Flash, but it still doesn't justify it. Everything on that site can be done without it. That said, it is hard to judge the value of a website, especially without seeing the backend. My advice is to spend an hour figuring out your costs and the amount of time it will take you to create such a site. Determine the value of your time, and write down your total cost. Then consider who you are selling to, and try to determine their budget. In light of your costs, time, and your client's budget, you can throw out some realistic figures. Further, avoid selling your services based on price. You need to demostrate to the vendor that you are useful to them as an business individual and not just a techie. If you sell yourself as a techie, prospects will see you on the same level as some of the ultra-cheap E. European labor.