Digital Video Projectors

Yi Fong Yu · August 29th, 2004, 06:20 PM

rob i know you probably know this already but having a front projector with DVI/component inputs available but not utilizing is pretty much a cardinal sin! it's literally night+day difference if you view component/DVI progressive vs s-video!

Mike Butler · August 29th, 2004, 09:28 PM

I wanted major bang for the buck when I decided to put an audio playback system in my kitchen (hey, don't laugh, that's where I watch TV and DVDs most of the time!)...so I called B&H and got a Sony home-theatre-in-a-box (HTIB), which included the model 750 receiver (100Wx5 for the satellites plus a powered sub) and all the speakers for about $260. Yeah, I know, not pro, but people can't believe how well it performs. It really does a sweet job handling movie audio, even the rockumentaries and action/adventure shoot-em-ups. And it eats up very little space. The low-model Panasonic DVD fits right on top of the receiver.

For the living room, it's a bit more intricate--plus an older set of gear: Yamaha Dolby Pro (5.1) receiver with JBL 4311Bs (control room monitors) at the corners, Eminence center channel and Marantzes in the rear channels. Driven by a higher-end Panasonic DVD with a nice jog-shuttle.

OK, enough about the nailed-down home installs...when it's time to take the show on the road, it's back to 2-channel stereo. Usually, it gets plugged into a DJ system or small SR system: Mackie or Numark mixer, Mackie power amp, E/V speakers. This really "projects" the sound...it almost doesn't matter what kind of projector I'm using.

Rob Lohman · August 30th, 2004, 06:29 AM

I know Yi, it's just a money kind of issue. So for now it will have
to do with s-video. Hey, it's an improvement over my TV anyway!

Yi Fong Yu · August 30th, 2004, 07:32 AM

i dunno about netherlands but here in the US dvd players with component outputs are available for less than $100 INCLUDING the cost of component cables. =).

Christopher Go · September 1st, 2004, 02:02 AM

Mike, you've got high end gear all over your house! Must be very nice.

I just went with a home theater in a box solution too. After the projector and screen expenses, I had only so much left over. I went with a Pioneer model, clickable here.

You can spend a great deal more for cables of course. I was thinking of changing over to Monster cables but they easily add up in cost! Additionally, I'm trying to find a better way of concealing them - right now they're just out in the open.

Rob, if you got your setup for free then that's a great deal. The question is whether you'll be able to give the projector back! BTW, is the X2 quiet in operation?

Rob Lohman · September 1st, 2004, 02:28 AM

I think it's pretty load. If I remember correctly it is rated at 39 dB
(which was 37 for the X1). I haven't been able to seriously
watch a movie with it yet so I don't know. It also depends where
you place it I guess.

A small test reveiled I will probably have to place it very near
to the couch to not blow up the picture too much (ie, my wall
will be too small). I'm not sure about where to place it yet or
if I'm going to change the layout of my room or not. Hopefully
I will have some time next weekend to fiddle with that.

Will be hard to give back indeed <g>

Mike Butler · September 1st, 2004, 09:36 AM

Yeah, Chris, it's fun having all that stuff. I've always loved it since I was a kid and in fact used to sell it (was manager of a stereo store in New Haven). Of course, I use some of it for work so I can always justify a purchase.

On the subject of cables, I would be very cautious about the claims made on behalf of exotic, high-dollar cables. Double-blind listening tests have shown that there is no audible difference between ultra-high-cost cables and conventional ones of appropriate quality and diameter. You have to ask yourself why you never see the exotic-materials cables in pro systems, instead seeing the good old standards like Switchcraft, Neutrik, Proco, Canare, Belden, Rapco, to name a few. These are all made of conventional materials with high-quality construction. (Of course, the size and multiplicity of cables found in pro systems are enough to run up the $$$). That being said, go with a quality-built cable from a good manufacturer.

And there's nothing wrong with gold-plated connecting surfaces; the corrosion resistance of the plating helps with longevity: a 10-year-old gold plug still looks brand new and conducts perfectly. But don't be fooled there either; it is so easy for a cheap offshore manufacturer to skimp on materials (thin wire, flimsy metal contacts, weak plastic plug bodies, etc.) and gold-plate the plugs for a few cents so it LOOKS like a quality cable.

One of the best things you can do with respect to cables is to keep the run as SHORT as possible. With line-level cables (the RCAs between VCR, CD player and amplifier, etc.) the longer you go the more chance there is of hum/noise pickup.** With speaker lines, if you double the length, you virtually have to double the diameter ($$) to get the same power handling capacity.

That's just my 2¢ worth.

[I]** One of the big distinctions between consumer and commercial audio is typically that consumer gear uses RCA (unbalanced), while pro uses XLR (balanced) connections, which gives you the luxury of going hundreds of feet with no discernible signal loss. Also, what's considered "line level" for pro is 14dB higher than for consumer, giving you a hotter signal to work with. But you can certainly manage the signal with consumer gear if you know the right things. Much has been written about this, check out one of Jay Rose's volumes if you are interested in learning about this in more detail.

+++++++++++++++

Hey Rob, have you thought about hanging the projector from the ceiling?

Yi Fong Yu · September 1st, 2004, 10:05 AM

regarding cables (which can spawn another thread altogether) it's pretty easy. just get any brand that is magnetically shielded so you don't get radio interference and it'll be as good as monster, which is over-rated as a brand. i have acoustic research and they're cheaper and just as good as monster.

Mike Butler · September 1st, 2004, 11:03 AM

True, it is necessary to use shielded cable for input-level (not speaker) connections. That's not about brand, but the type of cable. However. there is a difference in the amounts of shielding coverage, with 95% considered good. It takes metal to make a shield, and more metal is better, whether braid, spiral wire, foil, or a combination. Cheap manufacturers use less metal.

Without endorsing specific brands, i agree AR cables are good, Monster are good but very expensive (and sometimes annoyingly thick), and any of the pro brands will work reliably (some have lifetime warranties).

If you buy a 65¢ cable, it may work OK today but break down at the worst moment. You are right, this COULD spawn another whole thread.

As for getting the video signal to the projector, the higher frequencies involved make safeguarding signal integrity more challenging than for audio frequencies. The better A/V cables actually use RG-59/U (the same kind of coaxial cable used for cross-wiring cable TV) for better matching and less loss. Of course, I have also successfully used S-Video runs of up to 100 feet with good cable, and similar lengths with VGA (for presentation graphics from laptop to projector).

Yi Fong Yu · September 1st, 2004, 12:01 PM

on a related note to front projectors and cables:

since most front projectors will be mounted at a pretty fair distance away from its source, how far can DVI signals travel without degradation? i mean it IS digital after all not analog like component or S-Video.

Rob Lohman · September 2nd, 2004, 05:14 AM

I have no idea, but I've thought about it in the following way.

Either of these will apply:

I will put the projector at the back end of my room. My DVD shelfs are there as well, so why not put my DVD player there as well? More easy to put a DVD in that way as well. Very short line from player to projector. The audio is going over coaxial SPDIF anyway so that shouldn't be a problem for most rooms (I had no problem with such a long cable for audio myself => and that was a CRAPPY cable). The only problem will probably be that the projector projects too large of an image, time will tell.
The other option is to put it much closer and with the X2 I can probably mount it "under" a table infront of the couch. It projects UP so it will be the correct hight. And it will probably create just a large enough image as well. In this case my receiver (and the place where my DVD player currently is) and DVD player will only be something like 6 feet away (1.5 meters) or so. Shouldn't be a problem for S-Video / DVI me thinks?

Ofcourse it will be very easy to put ALL of the equipment in the
back if I decide to put the projector there. I don't need my
receiver to be in front of me. Don't change it while watching a
movie anyway.

Mike Butler · September 2nd, 2004, 10:56 AM

Hey 6 feet is a piece of cake! (that's the length of a typical S-VHS cable) And hey, you can still adjust the receiver by aiming the remote back over your shoulder! :-)

Yi Fong Yu · September 2nd, 2004, 04:07 PM

most IR remotes you can bounce off of front project screen and it'll reach the back no problem.

Rob Lohman · September 5th, 2004, 02:55 AM

I did a bit more testing and with my current room layout I probably
can't get it to work easy. The projector under the table is no
option, too close to the screen and just a bit too low. I had
it on a camera case this weekend which was the right height
and just beside the couch. Ofcourse this projected too far to
the side. I'll have to do some more testing I guess...

Christopher Go · September 7th, 2004, 04:32 AM

Mike, you're the resident cable/electronics expert. Very good info, thanks. I'll look for those other brands before having to resort to Monster.

Not sure how to run the cables, and at what lengths yet. Right now it isn't the greatest looking installation. Any good strategies on how to conceal them? I'm thinking of buying some cable runners that stick to the wall, but I'm uneasy that it may peel the paint if I ever have to remove it.

Rob, you may have to invest in a ceiling mount for the projector. I decided to mount mine permanently and the angle is great. The projector is out of the way as well. Of course, you'll have to move DVD equipment and so on around. Now that I'm aiming for a permanent installation, I may purchase a screen that I can pull down from the ceiling....

August 29th, 2004, 06:20 PM	#46
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	rob i know you probably know this already but having a front projector with DVI/component inputs available but not utilizing is pretty much a cardinal sin! it's literally night+day difference if you view component/DVI progressive vs s-video! __________________ bow wow wow

August 29th, 2004, 09:28 PM	#47
Mike Butler Machinist Mate Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Connecticut Posts: 644	I wanted major bang for the buck when I decided to put an audio playback system in my kitchen (hey, don't laugh, that's where I watch TV and DVDs most of the time!)...so I called B&H and got a Sony home-theatre-in-a-box (HTIB), which included the model 750 receiver (100Wx5 for the satellites plus a powered sub) and all the speakers for about $260. Yeah, I know, not pro, but people can't believe how well it performs. It really does a sweet job handling movie audio, even the rockumentaries and action/adventure shoot-em-ups. And it eats up very little space. The low-model Panasonic DVD fits right on top of the receiver. For the living room, it's a bit more intricate--plus an older set of gear: Yamaha Dolby Pro (5.1) receiver with JBL 4311Bs (control room monitors) at the corners, Eminence center channel and Marantzes in the rear channels. Driven by a higher-end Panasonic DVD with a nice jog-shuttle. OK, enough about the nailed-down home installs...when it's time to take the show on the road, it's back to 2-channel stereo. Usually, it gets plugged into a DJ system or small SR system: Mackie or Numark mixer, Mackie power amp, E/V speakers. This really "projects" the sound...it almost doesn't matter what kind of projector I'm using. __________________ I ain't straight outta Compton, I'm straight out the trailer. Cuss like a sailor, drink like a Mc. My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit."

August 30th, 2004, 06:29 AM	#48
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I know Yi, it's just a money kind of issue. So for now it will have to do with s-video. Hey, it's an improvement over my TV anyway! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 30th, 2004, 07:32 AM	#49
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	i dunno about netherlands but here in the US dvd players with component outputs are available for less than $100 INCLUDING the cost of component cables. =). __________________ bow wow wow

September 1st, 2004, 02:28 AM	#51
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I think it's pretty load. If I remember correctly it is rated at 39 dB (which was 37 for the X1). I haven't been able to seriously watch a movie with it yet so I don't know. It also depends where you place it I guess. A small test reveiled I will probably have to place it very near to the couch to not blow up the picture too much (ie, my wall will be too small). I'm not sure about where to place it yet or if I'm going to change the layout of my room or not. Hopefully I will have some time next weekend to fiddle with that. Will be hard to give back indeed <g> __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 1st, 2004, 02:02 AM	#50
Christopher Go Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 429	Mike, you've got high end gear all over your house! Must be very nice. I just went with a home theater in a box solution too. After the projector and screen expenses, I had only so much left over. I went with a Pioneer model, clickable here. You can spend a great deal more for cables of course. I was thinking of changing over to Monster cables but they easily add up in cost! Additionally, I'm trying to find a better way of concealing them - right now they're just out in the open. Rob, if you got your setup for free then that's a great deal. The question is whether you'll be able to give the projector back! BTW, is the X2 quiet in operation?

September 1st, 2004, 09:36 AM	#52
Mike Butler Machinist Mate Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Connecticut Posts: 644	Yeah, Chris, it's fun having all that stuff. I've always loved it since I was a kid and in fact used to sell it (was manager of a stereo store in New Haven). Of course, I use some of it for work so I can always justify a purchase. On the subject of cables, I would be very cautious about the claims made on behalf of exotic, high-dollar cables. Double-blind listening tests have shown that there is no audible difference between ultra-high-cost cables and conventional ones of appropriate quality and diameter. You have to ask yourself why you never see the exotic-materials cables in pro systems, instead seeing the good old standards like Switchcraft, Neutrik, Proco, Canare, Belden, Rapco, to name a few. These are all made of conventional materials with high-quality construction. (Of course, the size and multiplicity of cables found in pro systems are enough to run up the $$$). That being said, go with a quality-built cable from a good manufacturer. And there's nothing wrong with gold-plated connecting surfaces; the corrosion resistance of the plating helps with longevity: a 10-year-old gold plug still looks brand new and conducts perfectly. But don't be fooled there either; it is so easy for a cheap offshore manufacturer to skimp on materials (thin wire, flimsy metal contacts, weak plastic plug bodies, etc.) and gold-plate the plugs for a few cents so it LOOKS like a quality cable. One of the best things you can do with respect to cables is to keep the run as SHORT as possible. With line-level cables (the RCAs between VCR, CD player and amplifier, etc.) the longer you go the more chance there is of hum/noise pickup. With speaker lines, if you double the length, you virtually have to double the diameter ($$) to get the same power handling capacity. That's just my 2¢ worth. [I] One of the big distinctions between consumer and commercial audio is typically that consumer gear uses RCA (unbalanced), while pro uses XLR (balanced) connections, which gives you the luxury of going hundreds of feet with no discernible signal loss. Also, what's considered "line level" for pro is 14dB higher than for consumer, giving you a hotter signal to work with. But you can certainly manage the signal with consumer gear if you know the right things. Much has been written about this, check out one of Jay Rose's volumes if you are interested in learning about this in more detail. +++++++++++++++ Hey Rob, have you thought about hanging the projector from the ceiling? __________________ I ain't straight outta Compton, I'm straight out the trailer. Cuss like a sailor, drink like a Mc. My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit."

September 1st, 2004, 10:05 AM	#53
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	regarding cables (which can spawn another thread altogether) it's pretty easy. just get any brand that is magnetically shielded so you don't get radio interference and it'll be as good as monster, which is over-rated as a brand. i have acoustic research and they're cheaper and just as good as monster. __________________ bow wow wow

September 1st, 2004, 11:03 AM	#54
Mike Butler Machinist Mate Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Connecticut Posts: 644	True, it is necessary to use shielded cable for input-level (not speaker) connections. That's not about brand, but the type of cable. However. there is a difference in the amounts of shielding coverage, with 95% considered good. It takes metal to make a shield, and more metal is better, whether braid, spiral wire, foil, or a combination. Cheap manufacturers use less metal. Without endorsing specific brands, i agree AR cables are good, Monster are good but very expensive (and sometimes annoyingly thick), and any of the pro brands will work reliably (some have lifetime warranties). If you buy a 65¢ cable, it may work OK today but break down at the worst moment. You are right, this COULD spawn another whole thread. As for getting the video signal to the projector, the higher frequencies involved make safeguarding signal integrity more challenging than for audio frequencies. The better A/V cables actually use RG-59/U (the same kind of coaxial cable used for cross-wiring cable TV) for better matching and less loss. Of course, I have also successfully used S-Video runs of up to 100 feet with good cable, and similar lengths with VGA (for presentation graphics from laptop to projector). __________________ I ain't straight outta Compton, I'm straight out the trailer. Cuss like a sailor, drink like a Mc. My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit."

September 1st, 2004, 12:01 PM	#55
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	on a related note to front projectors and cables: since most front projectors will be mounted at a pretty fair distance away from its source, how far can DVI signals travel without degradation? i mean it IS digital after all not analog like component or S-Video. __________________ bow wow wow

September 2nd, 2004, 05:14 AM	#56
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I have no idea, but I've thought about it in the following way. Either of these will apply: I will put the projector at the back end of my room. My DVD shelfs are there as well, so why not put my DVD player there as well? More easy to put a DVD in that way as well. Very short line from player to projector. The audio is going over coaxial SPDIF anyway so that shouldn't be a problem for most rooms (I had no problem with such a long cable for audio myself => and that was a CRAPPY cable). The only problem will probably be that the projector projects too large of an image, time will tell. The other option is to put it much closer and with the X2 I can probably mount it "under" a table infront of the couch. It projects UP so it will be the correct hight. And it will probably create just a large enough image as well. In this case my receiver (and the place where my DVD player currently is) and DVD player will only be something like 6 feet away (1.5 meters) or so. Shouldn't be a problem for S-Video / DVI me thinks? Ofcourse it will be very easy to put ALL of the equipment in the back if I decide to put the projector there. I don't need my receiver to be in front of me. Don't change it while watching a movie anyway. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 2nd, 2004, 10:56 AM	#57
Mike Butler Machinist Mate Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Connecticut Posts: 644	Hey 6 feet is a piece of cake! (that's the length of a typical S-VHS cable) And hey, you can still adjust the receiver by aiming the remote back over your shoulder! :-) __________________ I ain't straight outta Compton, I'm straight out the trailer. Cuss like a sailor, drink like a Mc. My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit."

September 2nd, 2004, 04:07 PM	#58
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	most IR remotes you can bounce off of front project screen and it'll reach the back no problem. __________________ bow wow wow

September 5th, 2004, 02:55 AM	#59
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I did a bit more testing and with my current room layout I probably can't get it to work easy. The projector under the table is no option, too close to the screen and just a bit too low. I had it on a camera case this weekend which was the right height and just beside the couch. Ofcourse this projected too far to the side. I'll have to do some more testing I guess... __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 7th, 2004, 04:32 AM	#60
Christopher Go Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 429	Mike, you're the resident cable/electronics expert. Very good info, thanks. I'll look for those other brands before having to resort to Monster. Not sure how to run the cables, and at what lengths yet. Right now it isn't the greatest looking installation. Any good strategies on how to conceal them? I'm thinking of buying some cable runners that stick to the wall, but I'm uneasy that it may peel the paint if I ever have to remove it. Rob, you may have to invest in a ceiling mount for the projector. I decided to mount mine permanently and the angle is great. The projector is out of the way as well. Of course, you'll have to move DVD equipment and so on around. Now that I'm aiming for a permanent installation, I may purchase a screen that I can pull down from the ceiling....