Old film looks at DVinfo.net

Benjamin Richardson · April 8th, 2007, 06:59 PM

The look I'm going for is old 8mm, the de-saturation, yet oversaturation of some colors, and purity of those colors. The warmth of the colors as well. Death Proof, Quentin Tarantino's new film is the basis of the look I'm attempting. I have always loved the look of old 8mm, and really many old film stocks look beautiful to my eye. The color relations are what interest me, I'm not interested in scratched and battered film, just the color reproduction. Over the next few days I'll be testing different work flows and solutions to this question, but would be interested in hearing other peoples thoughts and advice as to how to achieve the look. I'm working in PP2 with an H1.

Juan Parra · April 8th, 2007, 11:25 PM

Do a search on film gamma colors.
Voila

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin Richardson

The look I'm going for is old 8mm, the de-saturation, yet oversaturation of some colors, and purity of those colors. The warmth of the colors as well. Death Proof, Quentin Tarantino's new film is the basis of the look I'm attempting. I have always loved the look of old 8mm, and really many old film stocks look beautiful to my eye. The color relations are what interest me, I'm not interested in scratched and battered film, just the color reproduction. Over the next few days I'll be testing different work flows and solutions to this question, but would be interested in hearing other peoples thoughts and advice as to how to achieve the look. I'm working in PP2 with an H1.

Marcus Marchesseault · April 10th, 2007, 02:01 AM

I did searches and an answer was not forthcoming. I did find a bunch of discussions about 24p.

From what I can read, it looks like Magic Bullet and the Vegas filmlook plugins from VAAST are the primary ways people around here get their film gamma colors. It is also possible to do this through color correction tools in the NLE and I intend to learn about this from Glen Chan's tutorial that is part of the VASST Vegas tutorial suite.

David Mullen · April 10th, 2007, 10:14 AM

Trouble is that an "old film look" is completely subjective! It's whatever we remember as the look -- it could be red-shifted Eastmancolor prints that we also duped too many times, it could be the look of fresh Kodachrome, rich colors but contrasty, it could be faded Anschochrome slides, etc.

You basically have to decide what the look is and color-correct the image for that look. You want lifted blacks with a hint of magenta in them, or blue, do that (old prints of then-new negatives shift to the magenta, whereas new prints of now-old negative have a blue-bias to the blacks, and yellowing highlights.)

As far as "Grindhouse", having just seen it yesterday, "Planet Terror" (shot on the Genesis HD camera) had a lot more monkeying around with the look in post, whereas "Death Proof" (shot in 35mm) was pretty straight-forward looking, especially for the car chase. Just looked like modern 35mm color neg photography. The interior scenes were lit a little crudely on fast film stock, which gives them a somewhat b-movie grunge look, but the day stuff was pretty normal-looking. Unlike "Planet Terror" which varies wildly in grain structure, color saturation, etc.

Christopher Witz · April 10th, 2007, 11:09 AM

I like that look too.... anything but "video look" right?

I used nattress "bleach" FCP plugin here....
http://www.witzke-studio.com/hd/dyingindiana.html

best $100 ( for plugin ) I've ever spent....

There' happy.... so I'm happy!

Benjamin Richardson · April 10th, 2007, 06:18 PM

"Old Film Look" is very subjective! I just noticed how vague my question really was. "Death Proof" more or less reminded me of older films, the look I'm going for is Kodachrome.

Marcus Marchesseault · April 10th, 2007, 09:41 PM

"fresh Kodachrome, rich colors but contrasty"

Yup, I think that is what most people these days associate with quality old-film look. I think they crush the blacks too much, but that may be due to the low contrast range of video. The dust and scratches effect didn't sell the look without the appropriate coloration. It took a while, but I think people finally realized that color and contrasts are the real difference between old film and video.

Anyone have any more tips on achieving the Kodachrome look?

Benjamin Richardson · April 10th, 2007, 10:16 PM

I'm workin' on it...

David H. Castillo · April 11th, 2007, 12:37 PM

To achieve a 8mm Kodachrome look through video acquisition you first have to look at how its shot. Kodak Kodachrome is balance for Tungsten so when it is shot outdoors an 85 filters is needed to correct the color to daylight. The 85 filters in the old 8mm cameras were not that great so alot of the time the footage had a warm look to it. To get close to the color saturation and warmer look of old 8mm the use of an enhancing filter which will pop the reds, oranges and slightly warm the image. The one thing to note is watch skin tones the standard enhancing filter will warm the skin tone, there are also enhancing filter that do not effect skin tone but are more expensive.

examples of enhancing filter

http://www.tiffen.com/enhancing_filter_pics.htm

Exposure

Kodachrome had and still has a low asa of 40 and with a 85 filter for day light it drops to 25 asa, you need a lot of light to expose the film. That said keep the video lens wide open F 2 for a shallow depth of field and try to underexpose the background a bite. Lighting for the old 8mm look you must keep in mind the amount of light needed and their budget or the lack of a budget back then, they usually used one strong light source.

Contrast

Two options can be used to get the contrast value of 8mm film. In post increasing the constrast levels or using a plug in for example magic bullet software. The other option is to use a contrast filter, I would recommend a soft contrast filter. The soft contrast filter will take the edge off digital video and boost the contrast.

example
http://www.tiffen.com/contrast_filters.htm

Frame Rate

8mm film when projected has a slight flutter to it, this on account to the the shifting frame rate of the cameras. Some 8mm cameras could only do 18 FPS while other with a sync sound would slip away from 24fps when the battery was low or it was the begining of a roll. Taking this into account in post change the speed of the footage erratically will add to the desired effect.

I used tiffen as a example, but there are other filter manufactures available
Formatt, Lee, and Shneider to choose from.

To achieve an older look if at all possible try to use the same tools, but in alot of cases that not practical. The second best way is to try to get as much of the look in the anolog world. The way light can be manipulated onto the film/ccd/cmos I feel has yet to be truely captured in the digital world.The lighting, lens, and filters used breath a life into piece the a plug in does not. I believe in the 50/50 rule 50 in camera and 50 in post. Try to get close to the look in camera and tweak in post to get the finial look.

April 8th, 2007, 06:59 PM	#1
Benjamin Richardson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 143	Old film looks The look I'm going for is old 8mm, the de-saturation, yet oversaturation of some colors, and purity of those colors. The warmth of the colors as well. Death Proof, Quentin Tarantino's new film is the basis of the look I'm attempting. I have always loved the look of old 8mm, and really many old film stocks look beautiful to my eye. The color relations are what interest me, I'm not interested in scratched and battered film, just the color reproduction. Over the next few days I'll be testing different work flows and solutions to this question, but would be interested in hearing other peoples thoughts and advice as to how to achieve the look. I'm working in PP2 with an H1.

April 10th, 2007, 10:14 AM	#4
David Mullen American Society of Cinematographers Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 123	Trouble is that an "old film look" is completely subjective! It's whatever we remember as the look -- it could be red-shifted Eastmancolor prints that we also duped too many times, it could be the look of fresh Kodachrome, rich colors but contrasty, it could be faded Anschochrome slides, etc. You basically have to decide what the look is and color-correct the image for that look. You want lifted blacks with a hint of magenta in them, or blue, do that (old prints of then-new negatives shift to the magenta, whereas new prints of now-old negative have a blue-bias to the blacks, and yellowing highlights.) As far as "Grindhouse", having just seen it yesterday, "Planet Terror" (shot on the Genesis HD camera) had a lot more monkeying around with the look in post, whereas "Death Proof" (shot in 35mm) was pretty straight-forward looking, especially for the car chase. Just looked like modern 35mm color neg photography. The interior scenes were lit a little crudely on fast film stock, which gives them a somewhat b-movie grunge look, but the day stuff was pretty normal-looking. Unlike "Planet Terror" which varies wildly in grain structure, color saturation, etc. __________________ David Mullen, ASC Los Angeles

April 10th, 2007, 06:18 PM	#6
Benjamin Richardson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 143	"Old Film Look" is very subjective! I just noticed how vague my question really was. "Death Proof" more or less reminded me of older films, the look I'm going for is Kodachrome. Last edited by Benjamin Richardson; April 10th, 2007 at 07:31 PM.

April 10th, 2007, 02:01 AM	#3
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	I did searches and an answer was not forthcoming. I did find a bunch of discussions about 24p. From what I can read, it looks like Magic Bullet and the Vegas filmlook plugins from VAAST are the primary ways people around here get their film gamma colors. It is also possible to do this through color correction tools in the NLE and I intend to learn about this from Glen Chan's tutorial that is part of the VASST Vegas tutorial suite.

April 10th, 2007, 11:09 AM	#5
Christopher Witz Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 591	I like that look too.... anything but "video look" right? I used nattress "bleach" FCP plugin here.... http://www.witzke-studio.com/hd/dyingindiana.html best $100 ( for plugin ) I've ever spent.... There' happy.... so I'm happy!

April 10th, 2007, 09:41 PM	#7
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	"fresh Kodachrome, rich colors but contrasty" Yup, I think that is what most people these days associate with quality old-film look. I think they crush the blacks too much, but that may be due to the low contrast range of video. The dust and scratches effect didn't sell the look without the appropriate coloration. It took a while, but I think people finally realized that color and contrasts are the real difference between old film and video. Anyone have any more tips on achieving the Kodachrome look?

April 10th, 2007, 10:16 PM	#8
Benjamin Richardson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 143	I'm workin' on it...

April 11th, 2007, 12:37 PM	#9
David H. Castillo Cinematographer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 152	To achieve a 8mm Kodachrome look through video acquisition you first have to look at how its shot. Kodak Kodachrome is balance for Tungsten so when it is shot outdoors an 85 filters is needed to correct the color to daylight. The 85 filters in the old 8mm cameras were not that great so alot of the time the footage had a warm look to it. To get close to the color saturation and warmer look of old 8mm the use of an enhancing filter which will pop the reds, oranges and slightly warm the image. The one thing to note is watch skin tones the standard enhancing filter will warm the skin tone, there are also enhancing filter that do not effect skin tone but are more expensive. examples of enhancing filter http://www.tiffen.com/enhancing_filter_pics.htm Exposure Kodachrome had and still has a low asa of 40 and with a 85 filter for day light it drops to 25 asa, you need a lot of light to expose the film. That said keep the video lens wide open F 2 for a shallow depth of field and try to underexpose the background a bite. Lighting for the old 8mm look you must keep in mind the amount of light needed and their budget or the lack of a budget back then, they usually used one strong light source. Contrast Two options can be used to get the contrast value of 8mm film. In post increasing the constrast levels or using a plug in for example magic bullet software. The other option is to use a contrast filter, I would recommend a soft contrast filter. The soft contrast filter will take the edge off digital video and boost the contrast. example http://www.tiffen.com/contrast_filters.htm Frame Rate 8mm film when projected has a slight flutter to it, this on account to the the shifting frame rate of the cameras. Some 8mm cameras could only do 18 FPS while other with a sync sound would slip away from 24fps when the battery was low or it was the begining of a roll. Taking this into account in post change the speed of the footage erratically will add to the desired effect. I used tiffen as a example, but there are other filter manufactures available Formatt, Lee, and Shneider to choose from. To achieve an older look if at all possible try to use the same tools, but in alot of cases that not practical. The second best way is to try to get as much of the look in the anolog world. The way light can be manipulated onto the film/ccd/cmos I feel has yet to be truely captured in the digital world.The lighting, lens, and filters used breath a life into piece the a plug in does not. I believe in the 50/50 rule 50 in camera and 50 in post. Try to get close to the look in camera and tweak in post to get the finial look.