What are the basics for Film-Looking DV? at DVinfo.net

Richard Cranor · April 17th, 2003, 03:12 PM

I have a GL-1. I shoot with a shutter speed of 1/60 in the frame mode. This produces pretty good results.

Recently i discovered something called "De-interlacing". I don't know a whole lot about it. But I'm wondering, is this something I should do in addition to what I'm already doing (shooting 1/60, in frame mode)?

If I'm shooting at a shutter speed of 1/60, what is my GL-1 ACTUALLY captureing at? 60 frames per second or something else? (29.7 probably)?

Sorry, I'm easily confused.

Also, in post production should I bother even trying to reduce the frame speed down even further, like to 24, or is simply doing what I'm already doing good enough?

curious...

K. Forman · April 17th, 2003, 04:58 PM

My experience with deinterlaced video on tv, tends to make the whole image jerky. Likewise, reducing the 30fps video down seems to lose frame to frame quality. I have been experimenting with achieving a film quality, by merely reducing the chroma level a little, and adding the slightest bit of gaussian blur.

This softens the overall picture, and removes the harsh and sharp video look. You can then play with the black levels and contrast. It has a remarkable effect.

Richard Cranor · April 17th, 2003, 11:02 PM

Is adjusting the Chroma something you would do in post, along with guassian blur? I have FCP.

Thanks...

If you were shooting with my GL-1, would you continue to shoot in frame mode then?

And can you even de-interlace footage shot in frame mode?

Zac Stein · April 18th, 2003, 12:55 AM

Frame mode is a process of blending fields within the camera, in an abstract way the footage you have is already de-interlaced.

Film look is more about good lighting, being careful about what you shoot, and tweeking the colour and gamma settings in post.

There is a good article mirror here on dvinfo, i can't remember the url do a search on the main site under articles it has some good tips.

zac

Ken Tanaka · April 18th, 2003, 01:19 AM

I think these are the articles to which Kermie refers.

K. Forman · April 18th, 2003, 05:53 AM

Richard- Chroma is something you do in post, akin to color correction. The same with gaussian blur-it is a filter in most NLEs and Photoshop. As far as frame mode, I always had problems with severe blurring with motion, so I keep it in standard mode. But that is me.

Dylan Couper · April 18th, 2003, 10:54 AM

Lighting your sets like a film production would will also go a long way in helping.

Kevin Burnfield · April 18th, 2003, 01:17 PM

This is the THE big question... I know Chris had said they were talking about compiling a lot of the information in posts to make a FAQ or Tips List but I don't think anything came of that.

Number One Tip to make video look like film above every other:
Light and Shoot it like film

If you spend the time working on your shots and lighting it like it was a "real film" production you have made it 80% home.

Beyond that there are thousands of tips and discussions here--- hate to say "do a search" but I will. You could spend days here reading all the fantastic suggestions and advice people have offered.

K. Forman · April 18th, 2003, 02:27 PM

It kind of goes without saying, that every scene needs to be lit correctly, regardless of film or video. If it isn't lit well, it doesn't matter what look you are going for, you won't have a decent image.

Kevin Burnfield · April 18th, 2003, 03:38 PM

Quote:

It kind of goes without saying, that every scene needs to be lit correctly, regardless of film or video. If it isn't lit well, it doesn't matter what look you are going for, you won't have a decent image.

Not neccesarily true. You look at film lighting versus the lighting for most video projects and you'll see a significant difference in almost every case.

I've shot stuff that I knew I had ENOUGH light to get a good picture but it's not like I "lit" the scene. I got the shot and that's all I was going for.

I wasn't trying to set a tone, set a mood or catch the textures on the wall behind someone. I was just making sure there was enough light but not too much light.

A great expression someone came up with was "Painting with light".

Lighting is part of FILMCRAFT. Without Filmcraft whether you're shooting 8mm video or 35mm film it will look like crap.

Lighting is an art. For film especially... It's like setting up shots and knowing how to shoot a scene. Knowing what will convey the message you are trying to get across....

Ken Tanaka · April 18th, 2003, 05:03 PM

"Film look" is not just a matter of rendering video for film impression. Actually, I think overall control of the frame's appearance and content is the core objective. This means

getting good lighting on your scene,
making sure the scene and its contents are compositionally framed well, and
making sure that any movement of the camera is made in a deliberate, controlled and purposeful manner.

As Kevin alluded above, video can be coaxed to make the best of many unmitigated settings on-the-fly. This is due, in part, to the fact that the operator is continuously viewing the results and can quickly re-calibrate to changing conditions if needed. Film requires greater insight into the characteristics of lens/camera/film stock being used. (But, in fact, there are filmmakers and videographers who, for aesthetic purposes, choose to use existing light for every possible shot. )

In the end, what really separates the professional from the amateur in the viewer's eyes, whether film or video is the medium, is the control of the frame and how well it frees the viewer from distractions and leads him/her through the story in a thoughtful way.

Rob Lohman · April 23rd, 2003, 10:23 AM

Richard,

It can be confusing indeed. Our "consumer" cameras operate
at only one FRAME rate which is 29.97 fps for NTSC (which
is called 30 fps) and 25 fps for PAL. When you are shooting
interlaced these frames are devided into two fields and you
get 59,94 (60) FIELDS per second and 50 fields per second.

What you are referring to is the shutter speed which controls
more how the image looks. I don't know how other to explain
this without getting all technical....

Perhaps someone else can enlighten you more on this point

Justin Costanzo · April 24th, 2003, 03:21 AM

Ken Tanaka wrote:
"making sure that any movement of the camera is made in a deliberate, controlled and purposeful manner."

Great point Ken. This seems to be the second most (lighting being first) important aspect of that je ne sais quoi which seperates film from video. Stereotypically, video is marked by a more free floating, jittery, "hand held" look, resultant from countless home movies, and relative small size and weight, whereas a film camera is a big, unwieldy contraption, with lots of weight, encumbering size, and very likely locked down to an even larger object of device. Even a relatively small camera, like a Bolex H16 is still quite a bit heavier with just one mag of film, than your average prosumer video camera. What this all means is that if you were to treat your feather weight video camera, with the same approach you would a stationary film camera, you would go a long way in deciphering the kind of forethought that would go into staging and composing the frame as it would be film. Too often the urge is to pick of the video camera and begin to "experiment." If you pretend that there really is film in your camera, that it costs $40 per 3 minutes, and that you won't really know what it will look until a weel later, it is surprising how much more precious each shot becomes.

Chris Hurd · April 24th, 2003, 07:26 AM

Howdy from Texas,

<< I know Chris had said they were talking about compiling a lot of the information in posts to make a FAQ or Tips List but I don't think anything came of that. >>

Actually we are going forward with this, and there's one in place right now in the Taking Care of Business forum. More on the way for all the other areas including this one, but it will be a somewhat lengthy process.

April 17th, 2003, 03:12 PM	#1
Richard Cranor Tourist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 3	What are the basics for Film-Looking DV? I have a GL-1. I shoot with a shutter speed of 1/60 in the frame mode. This produces pretty good results. Recently i discovered something called "De-interlacing". I don't know a whole lot about it. But I'm wondering, is this something I should do in addition to what I'm already doing (shooting 1/60, in frame mode)? If I'm shooting at a shutter speed of 1/60, what is my GL-1 ACTUALLY captureing at? 60 frames per second or something else? (29.7 probably)? Sorry, I'm easily confused. Also, in post production should I bother even trying to reduce the frame speed down even further, like to 24, or is simply doing what I'm already doing good enough? curious...

April 18th, 2003, 01:19 AM	#5
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	I think these are the articles to which Kermie refers. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

April 18th, 2003, 10:54 AM	#7
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	Lighting your sets like a film production would will also go a long way in helping. __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

April 18th, 2003, 05:03 PM	#11
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	"Film look" is not just a matter of rendering video for film impression. Actually, I think overall control of the frame's appearance and content is the core objective. This means getting good lighting on your scene, making sure the scene and its contents are compositionally framed well, and making sure that any movement of the camera is made in a deliberate, controlled and purposeful manner. As Kevin alluded above, video can be coaxed to make the best of many unmitigated settings on-the-fly. This is due, in part, to the fact that the operator is continuously viewing the results and can quickly re-calibrate to changing conditions if needed. Film requires greater insight into the characteristics of lens/camera/film stock being used. (But, in fact, there are filmmakers and videographers who, for aesthetic purposes, choose to use existing light for every possible shot. ) In the end, what really separates the professional from the amateur in the viewer's eyes, whether film or video is the medium, is the control of the frame and how well it frees the viewer from distractions and leads him/her through the story in a thoughtful way. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

April 23rd, 2003, 10:23 AM	#12
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Richard, It can be confusing indeed. Our "consumer" cameras operate at only one FRAME rate which is 29.97 fps for NTSC (which is called 30 fps) and 25 fps for PAL. When you are shooting interlaced these frames are devided into two fields and you get 59,94 (60) FIELDS per second and 50 fields per second. What you are referring to is the shutter speed which controls more how the image looks. I don't know how other to explain this without getting all technical.... Perhaps someone else can enlighten you more on this point __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

April 17th, 2003, 04:58 PM	#2
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	My experience with deinterlaced video on tv, tends to make the whole image jerky. Likewise, reducing the 30fps video down seems to lose frame to frame quality. I have been experimenting with achieving a film quality, by merely reducing the chroma level a little, and adding the slightest bit of gaussian blur. This softens the overall picture, and removes the harsh and sharp video look. You can then play with the black levels and contrast. It has a remarkable effect.

April 17th, 2003, 11:02 PM	#3
Richard Cranor Tourist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 3	Is adjusting the Chroma something you would do in post, along with guassian blur? I have FCP. Thanks... If you were shooting with my GL-1, would you continue to shoot in frame mode then? And can you even de-interlace footage shot in frame mode?

April 18th, 2003, 12:55 AM	#4
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	Frame mode is a process of blending fields within the camera, in an abstract way the footage you have is already de-interlaced. Film look is more about good lighting, being careful about what you shoot, and tweeking the colour and gamma settings in post. There is a good article mirror here on dvinfo, i can't remember the url do a search on the main site under articles it has some good tips. zac

April 18th, 2003, 05:53 AM	#6
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Richard- Chroma is something you do in post, akin to color correction. The same with gaussian blur-it is a filter in most NLEs and Photoshop. As far as frame mode, I always had problems with severe blurring with motion, so I keep it in standard mode. But that is me.

April 18th, 2003, 01:17 PM	#8
Kevin Burnfield Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ Posts: 363	This is the THE big question... I know Chris had said they were talking about compiling a lot of the information in posts to make a FAQ or Tips List but I don't think anything came of that. Number One Tip to make video look like film above every other: Light and Shoot it like film If you spend the time working on your shots and lighting it like it was a "real film" production you have made it 80% home. Beyond that there are thousands of tips and discussions here--- hate to say "do a search" but I will. You could spend days here reading all the fantastic suggestions and advice people have offered.

April 18th, 2003, 02:27 PM	#9
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	It kind of goes without saying, that every scene needs to be lit correctly, regardless of film or video. If it isn't lit well, it doesn't matter what look you are going for, you won't have a decent image.

April 24th, 2003, 03:21 AM	#13
Justin Costanzo New Boot Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 14	Ken Tanaka wrote: "making sure that any movement of the camera is made in a deliberate, controlled and purposeful manner." Great point Ken. This seems to be the second most (lighting being first) important aspect of that je ne sais quoi which seperates film from video. Stereotypically, video is marked by a more free floating, jittery, "hand held" look, resultant from countless home movies, and relative small size and weight, whereas a film camera is a big, unwieldy contraption, with lots of weight, encumbering size, and very likely locked down to an even larger object of device. Even a relatively small camera, like a Bolex H16 is still quite a bit heavier with just one mag of film, than your average prosumer video camera. What this all means is that if you were to treat your feather weight video camera, with the same approach you would a stationary film camera, you would go a long way in deciphering the kind of forethought that would go into staging and composing the frame as it would be film. Too often the urge is to pick of the video camera and begin to "experiment." If you pretend that there really is film in your camera, that it costs $40 per 3 minutes, and that you won't really know what it will look until a weel later, it is surprising how much more precious each shot becomes.

April 24th, 2003, 07:26 AM	#14
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Howdy from Texas, << I know Chris had said they were talking about compiling a lot of the information in posts to make a FAQ or Tips List but I don't think anything came of that. >> Actually we are going forward with this, and there's one in place right now in the Taking Care of Business forum. More on the way for all the other areas including this one, but it will be a somewhat lengthy process. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!