Using DV footage in a 35mm film at DVinfo.net

Lizi Hesling · September 11th, 2006, 05:07 PM

First of all, I'm sorry if these questions seem a bit simple or have been asked before...

I'm filming a behind-the-scenes doc for a film (being shot in 35mm). The other day, they wanted to use my camera (a Sony HDV Z1 - actually, it's not my camera, which is why I don't know too much about it) to film some footage to be used in the film. They decided against this plan when they were unable to find a "24 fps" function on the camera. They thought the DV footage wouldn't match the speed of their film footage.
My first question is: Does the Sony Z1 have 24 fps? And what is the "cineframe" function?
My second quesiton is: What relation does "shutter speed" have to "frames per second"? It seems to me that the "speed" of DV (or HDV) doesn't change, no matter what shutter speed you use - the tape is still going at the same rate - whereas film does have a speed - 24 fps refers to how fast the film is going though the camera or the projector. So, it seems to me that you would be able to use DV footage in a film without any problems. Am I right?

Thanks in advance...

Lizi

Ben Winter · September 11th, 2006, 06:50 PM

A good site explaining CineFrame modes (which by the way is NOT true 24p, do NOT shoot in that mode if you want to transfer to film!) is here:

http://www.cineform.com/products/Son.../CineFrame.htm

Bottom line, no, sony's cameras do not have 24p, but their 60i footage makes for great post-pro conversion to it.

Shutter speed is how long the shutter is open to expose each "frame" of footage. If the shutter is open for a long time, there is a lot of motion blur in every frame since each frame of footage sees more of an instance of time. A faster shutter speed like 1/500 means the shutter clicks open and closed very quickly each frame, minimizing the frame of time the camera sees and therefore reducing motion blur. War films like Saving Private Ryan tend to be shot at higher shutter speeds, so things like drops of sweat or dirt flying through the air have a "strobe" effect to them, i.e. no motion blur.

I had a difficult time grasping shutter speed also when I was starting out, I didn't realize that there was framerate (number of frames per second the camera stores) versus shutter speed (how long the shutter remains open to expose each frame).

I would suggest buying Aspect HD if you want to convert the Z1u's 60i footage to 24p.

Frank Hool · September 11th, 2006, 11:32 PM

Cineframe is something which tries to emulate progressive scan. It uses only one half of interlaced footage and multiples the other from first half. So You will loose half of Your vertical resolution. I don't know what is the good situation to use Cineframe at all. So try to follow Ben's instructions to get nice progressive footage.

Djee Smit · September 12th, 2006, 07:47 AM

Also about this subject. Also about transporting the dv footage to film

http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/

Lizi Hesling · September 13th, 2006, 08:16 PM

Thank you everyone for your replies.

I am not attempting to achieve a film look with my DV camera. What the crew I am working with wanted to do is use DV-looking footage in their film. I suppose there are several ways to do this - and the director decided in the end to film the footage on 35mm and fiddle with it later. But I found this decision not to use my DV camera because it couldn't film in 24fps weird, and I wanted to be able to explain to them that it wouldn't matter. However, with my limited technical knowledge, I was unable to explain WHY it wouldn't matter. So that's why I've turned to you guys.

By the way, I read earlier posts about Cineframe and won't be using it. I'm actually filming in the most basic format possible - DV, 4:3, shutter speed at 50 or 60... and as I'm in China, the camera is set to 50i.

Thanks

William Hohauser · September 16th, 2006, 11:00 PM

50i? That's transfers better to film then 60i!

All the film house would do (after color correction) is deinterlace the fields to 25p and transfer the tape directly to film. You would get footage that is slowed down about 5%, mostly unnoticable.

That film crew was very uninformed. Many transfer to film video projects are done in 50i.

September 11th, 2006, 05:07 PM	#1
Lizi Hesling Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Beijing, China Posts: 40	Using DV footage in a 35mm film First of all, I'm sorry if these questions seem a bit simple or have been asked before... I'm filming a behind-the-scenes doc for a film (being shot in 35mm). The other day, they wanted to use my camera (a Sony HDV Z1 - actually, it's not my camera, which is why I don't know too much about it) to film some footage to be used in the film. They decided against this plan when they were unable to find a "24 fps" function on the camera. They thought the DV footage wouldn't match the speed of their film footage. My first question is: Does the Sony Z1 have 24 fps? And what is the "cineframe" function? My second quesiton is: What relation does "shutter speed" have to "frames per second"? It seems to me that the "speed" of DV (or HDV) doesn't change, no matter what shutter speed you use - the tape is still going at the same rate - whereas film does have a speed - 24 fps refers to how fast the film is going though the camera or the projector. So, it seems to me that you would be able to use DV footage in a film without any problems. Am I right? Thanks in advance... Lizi

September 11th, 2006, 06:50 PM	#2
Ben Winter Trustee Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 1,675 Images: 1	A good site explaining CineFrame modes (which by the way is NOT true 24p, do NOT shoot in that mode if you want to transfer to film!) is here: http://www.cineform.com/products/Son.../CineFrame.htm Bottom line, no, sony's cameras do not have 24p, but their 60i footage makes for great post-pro conversion to it. Shutter speed is how long the shutter is open to expose each "frame" of footage. If the shutter is open for a long time, there is a lot of motion blur in every frame since each frame of footage sees more of an instance of time. A faster shutter speed like 1/500 means the shutter clicks open and closed very quickly each frame, minimizing the frame of time the camera sees and therefore reducing motion blur. War films like Saving Private Ryan tend to be shot at higher shutter speeds, so things like drops of sweat or dirt flying through the air have a "strobe" effect to them, i.e. no motion blur. I had a difficult time grasping shutter speed also when I was starting out, I didn't realize that there was framerate (number of frames per second the camera stores) versus shutter speed (how long the shutter remains open to expose each frame). I would suggest buying Aspect HD if you want to convert the Z1u's 60i footage to 24p. __________________ BenWinter.com

September 12th, 2006, 07:47 AM	#4
Djee Smit Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Breda, Netherlands Posts: 141	Also about this subject. Also about transporting the dv footage to film http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/ __________________ www.wanah.nl

September 13th, 2006, 08:16 PM	#5
Lizi Hesling Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Beijing, China Posts: 40	fps, shutter speed, and mixing DV with 35mm Thank you everyone for your replies. I am not attempting to achieve a film look with my DV camera. What the crew I am working with wanted to do is use DV-looking footage in their film. I suppose there are several ways to do this - and the director decided in the end to film the footage on 35mm and fiddle with it later. But I found this decision not to use my DV camera because it couldn't film in 24fps weird, and I wanted to be able to explain to them that it wouldn't matter. However, with my limited technical knowledge, I was unable to explain WHY it wouldn't matter. So that's why I've turned to you guys. By the way, I read earlier posts about Cineframe and won't be using it. I'm actually filming in the most basic format possible - DV, 4:3, shutter speed at 50 or 60... and as I'm in China, the camera is set to 50i. Thanks

September 16th, 2006, 11:00 PM	#6
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	50i? That's transfers better to film then 60i! All the film house would do (after color correction) is deinterlace the fields to 25p and transfer the tape directly to film. You would get footage that is slowed down about 5%, mostly unnoticable. That film crew was very uninformed. Many transfer to film video projects are done in 50i. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

September 11th, 2006, 11:32 PM	#3
Frank Hool Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Barca Spain Posts: 384	Cineframe is something which tries to emulate progressive scan. It uses only one half of interlaced footage and multiples the other from first half. So You will loose half of Your vertical resolution. I don't know what is the good situation to use Cineframe at all. So try to follow Ben's instructions to get nice progressive footage.