Gunplay at DVinfo.net

Logan Bright · August 4th, 2006, 11:15 PM

Hey hey. This fall I am attempting my first real feature - on no budget, as it is a high school thing just with friends and a couple hundred bucks in our pockets.

The movie is a comedy about police, so it shall include lots of gunplay. Not a problem, we've got that stuff set up.

Where we encounter a problem is the first scene includes a diner being shot up. One shot in particular we need is a closeup of a drinking glass, that a bullet hits (not necessary to actually see the bullet) and the glass just explodes as if it has been caught in crossfire.

My question is - how do we manage this? We can't cut away or anything, it must be a single shot with the glass just bursting as if it has been hit. I have experience in Premiere Pro 1.5, Vegas 6, and VERY limited experience with After Effects 6.5. (If someone gave me a step by step tutorial for AE I could do it, but otherwise I'm lost as of this time.)

Remember, we have very little money and cannot afford squibs or whatnot, unless they can be made easily at home - which I realize is dangerous. So any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance,

Loggie B~

Lori Starfelt · August 5th, 2006, 01:54 AM

We talked about this, and the solutions that we came up with involved an air powered pellet gun or a bb gun. And I'm not sure that I should be advising you to use guns on this forum.

If nobody else comes up with anything, and it's alright with Chris Hurd, I'll pass our thoughts along. But before i do, let's see if anyone comes up with something less risky than the solutions we arrived at.

Robert Gradisen · August 5th, 2006, 05:06 AM

Its probably quite dangerous but I guess if you got everyone involved to ware protective gear and safety glasses , you could use an old fashioned sling shot with a ball bearing or small pebble, but please be careful ,can`t stress this enough, because injury is bad and will cost you money

Steve House · August 5th, 2006, 07:20 AM

Consider purchasing or making a pane of sugar-glass instead of glass-glass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_glass

K. Forman · August 5th, 2006, 07:30 AM

Even with BBs and slingshots, there is a risk of ricochet, or even flying glass. Maybe you should save up and hire an effects crew for this scene.

Logan Bright · August 5th, 2006, 07:41 AM

Thanks for all the replies so fast =)

I might have to look into this sugar glass idea, it seems like the safest way. I do have an old slingshot I could use, but that seems fairly risky for all involved. If I can bake up some sugar glass, I might just be in business.

Thanks again to all who posted~

Andy Graham · August 5th, 2006, 08:49 AM

If your shot is just a closeup it doesn't have to be shot in the bar or diner your shooting the other stuff in. If it were me I would find an old shed or something and stick a few lights up and then find some wood thats the same colour as the table top in the diner . I would have the camera back a bit and angled down so your just framing the table and glass, zoom in so your not in any danger of being hit by glass and then just shoot it with an air rife (any air rifle around 11 or 12 foot pounds will destroy a glass).

In this case you could do it alone so no one else could possibly get hurt.Your lighting doesn't have to be perfect cause there is so much you can do in post to colour correct it.

Just my 2 cents.

Andy.

Keith Loh · August 5th, 2006, 10:42 AM

How about a greenscreen edit?

1 shot: Glass in foreground with cast in background to establish.
2 shot: Remove cast and glass and film background element.
3 shot: Substitute background with green matte background
3b: shoot the glass exploding.
4 shot: With no glass, film cast reaction.

Use AfterEffects or other editor to edit shots together.

Lori Starfelt · August 5th, 2006, 11:27 AM

Our thinking was this - put on safety glasses and long sleeves and shoot the glass with an air pellet gun. You could also heat glass, pour water in it so that it cracks, and then shoot it with a bb gun.

Someone else suggested shooting it in a shed - good idea, if it's possible.

Andy Graham · August 5th, 2006, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Loh

How about a greenscreen edit.

I thought about that aswell but the thing is your gonna have alot of trouble trying to use chromakey on something clear like a glass, it would have to be a solid colour for a key to work and it would still mean shooting the glass in the diner.

You could find a shed like i said ,set up your fake table and then put a greenscreen up like keith said and use a coffee cup instead of a glass then key in your background plate. An acceptable compromise.

Andy.

Zack Vohaska · August 5th, 2006, 04:35 PM

Ever hear of 'candy glass?' I couldn't tell you how to make it, but it's fairly easy if you find the recipe. I know there has been quite a few movies that have used "candy glass" as it isn't as sharp, it's cheaper, and plus, it's bio-degradable. As for what you'll use to make it shatter...I don't have the answer for you there. ;)

Denis Danatzko · August 5th, 2006, 05:57 PM

if the shot will be a CU of the glass, then all that needs to be in frame is the glass and the surface it sits on. If you can mimic/reproduce that surface, perhaps you could cause the shattering by drilling a hole in that surface and "attacking" the glass from underneath. You could even epoxy the glass to the base so it won't move. You may be able to get the effect you want using some glue, a hammer and nail. Just be sure the "attacker" wears protection.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide to do.

Dean Sensui · August 6th, 2006, 02:50 AM

You could use an airgun to break the glass. And if talent has to be nearby, then set the shot up as a split screen: The glass gets shattered in half the shot. Then the talent reacts in the other half.

Put the two halves together in post and, with creative rotoscoping or masking, the two can actually overlap.

When shooting the glass, you can use an old phone book as a pellet catch, backed with some plywood.

Marcus Marchesseault · August 7th, 2006, 03:09 AM

The split-screen suggestion Dean makes is definitely workable if the bb gun is safe at your location. I helped with a shot where a car needed to almost hit the actor. We had the car pull up and slam on the brakes, then we had the actor walk in after the car left and act like he was almost hit by a car at that spot. It takes some creativity to split the screen and the camera must be locked down. A quick cut just after the reaction to a reverse-angle of the actor and car together helped cement the seeming reality of the shot. NEVER do anything dangerous with the actor in the shot. With modern technology, there is no need to risk people's lives for your movie.

I seem to recall seeing how this is done professionally. I believe a type of fragile clear plastic is used and a tiny explosive charge inside a device drives a metal pin into the "glass" and makes it shatter.

Alex Sprinkle · August 8th, 2006, 10:53 AM

I'm going to have to side with Keith a few posts back. If you have a shot out of focus (background) of people moving behind the glass, then have them refracted as they pass "behind" it (the one that's not really there, but will be added later when you chroma key it).

I'm interested in learning more about this "pin/explosion" from the previous post though. Sounds interesting.

August 4th, 2006, 11:15 PM	#1
Logan Bright New Boot Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 24	Gunplay Hey hey. This fall I am attempting my first real feature - on no budget, as it is a high school thing just with friends and a couple hundred bucks in our pockets. The movie is a comedy about police, so it shall include lots of gunplay. Not a problem, we've got that stuff set up. Where we encounter a problem is the first scene includes a diner being shot up. One shot in particular we need is a closeup of a drinking glass, that a bullet hits (not necessary to actually see the bullet) and the glass just explodes as if it has been caught in crossfire. My question is - how do we manage this? We can't cut away or anything, it must be a single shot with the glass just bursting as if it has been hit. I have experience in Premiere Pro 1.5, Vegas 6, and VERY limited experience with After Effects 6.5. (If someone gave me a step by step tutorial for AE I could do it, but otherwise I'm lost as of this time.) Remember, we have very little money and cannot afford squibs or whatnot, unless they can be made easily at home - which I realize is dangerous. So any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance, Loggie B~

August 5th, 2006, 01:54 AM	#2
Lori Starfelt Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Los Angeles, california Posts: 228	Hire a soprano to hit that high note.... We talked about this, and the solutions that we came up with involved an air powered pellet gun or a bb gun. And I'm not sure that I should be advising you to use guns on this forum. If nobody else comes up with anything, and it's alright with Chris Hurd, I'll pass our thoughts along. But before i do, let's see if anyone comes up with something less risky than the solutions we arrived at.

August 5th, 2006, 07:20 AM	#4
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	Consider purchasing or making a pane of sugar-glass instead of glass-glass. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_glass __________________ Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!

August 5th, 2006, 07:30 AM	#5
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Even with BBs and slingshots, there is a risk of ricochet, or even flying glass. Maybe you should save up and hire an effects crew for this scene. __________________ www.SmokeWagonLeather.us

August 5th, 2006, 08:49 AM	#7
Andy Graham Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Lanark,Scotland Posts: 736	If your shot is just a closeup it doesn't have to be shot in the bar or diner your shooting the other stuff in. If it were me I would find an old shed or something and stick a few lights up and then find some wood thats the same colour as the table top in the diner . I would have the camera back a bit and angled down so your just framing the table and glass, zoom in so your not in any danger of being hit by glass and then just shoot it with an air rife (any air rifle around 11 or 12 foot pounds will destroy a glass). In this case you could do it alone so no one else could possibly get hurt.Your lighting doesn't have to be perfect cause there is so much you can do in post to colour correct it. Just my 2 cents. Andy. __________________ Actor: "where would that light be coming from?" DP: "same place as the music" -Andrew Lesnie-

August 5th, 2006, 05:06 AM	#3
Robert Gradisen New Boot Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Amsterdam , Netherlands Posts: 22	Its probably quite dangerous but I guess if you got everyone involved to ware protective gear and safety glasses , you could use an old fashioned sling shot with a ball bearing or small pebble, but please be careful ,can`t stress this enough, because injury is bad and will cost you money

August 5th, 2006, 07:41 AM	#6
Logan Bright New Boot Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 24	Thanks for all the replies so fast =) I might have to look into this sugar glass idea, it seems like the safest way. I do have an old slingshot I could use, but that seems fairly risky for all involved. If I can bake up some sugar glass, I might just be in business. Thanks again to all who posted~

August 5th, 2006, 10:42 AM	#8
Keith Loh Air China Pilot Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Posts: 2,389	How about a greenscreen edit? 1 shot: Glass in foreground with cast in background to establish. 2 shot: Remove cast and glass and film background element. 3 shot: Substitute background with green matte background 3b: shoot the glass exploding. 4 shot: With no glass, film cast reaction. Use AfterEffects or other editor to edit shots together. __________________ -- Visit http://www.KeithLoh.com \| stuff about living in Vancouver \| My Flickr photo gallery

August 5th, 2006, 11:27 AM	#9
Lori Starfelt Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Los Angeles, california Posts: 228	Well, since everyone else has jumped in.... Our thinking was this - put on safety glasses and long sleeves and shoot the glass with an air pellet gun. You could also heat glass, pour water in it so that it cracks, and then shoot it with a bb gun. Someone else suggested shooting it in a shed - good idea, if it's possible.

August 5th, 2006, 04:35 PM	#11
Zack Vohaska Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 74	Ever hear of 'candy glass?' I couldn't tell you how to make it, but it's fairly easy if you find the recipe. I know there has been quite a few movies that have used "candy glass" as it isn't as sharp, it's cheaper, and plus, it's bio-degradable. As for what you'll use to make it shatter...I don't have the answer for you there. ;) __________________ -Z-

August 5th, 2006, 05:57 PM	#12
Denis Danatzko Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: NYC Metro area Posts: 579	This might be safer: if the shot will be a CU of the glass, then all that needs to be in frame is the glass and the surface it sits on. If you can mimic/reproduce that surface, perhaps you could cause the shattering by drilling a hole in that surface and "attacking" the glass from underneath. You could even epoxy the glass to the base so it won't move. You may be able to get the effect you want using some glue, a hammer and nail. Just be sure the "attacker" wears protection. Good luck, and let us know what you decide to do. __________________ Denis ------------ Our actions are based on our own experience and knowledge. Thus, no one is ever totally right, nor totally wrong. We simply act from what we "know" to be true, based on that experience and knowledge. Beyond that, we pose questions to others.

August 6th, 2006, 02:50 AM	#13
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	You could use an airgun to break the glass. And if talent has to be nearby, then set the shot up as a split screen: The glass gets shattered in half the shot. Then the talent reacts in the other half. Put the two halves together in post and, with creative rotoscoping or masking, the two can actually overlap. When shooting the glass, you can use an old phone book as a pellet catch, backed with some plywood. __________________ Dean Sensui Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing

August 7th, 2006, 03:09 AM	#14
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	The split-screen suggestion Dean makes is definitely workable if the bb gun is safe at your location. I helped with a shot where a car needed to almost hit the actor. We had the car pull up and slam on the brakes, then we had the actor walk in after the car left and act like he was almost hit by a car at that spot. It takes some creativity to split the screen and the camera must be locked down. A quick cut just after the reaction to a reverse-angle of the actor and car together helped cement the seeming reality of the shot. NEVER do anything dangerous with the actor in the shot. With modern technology, there is no need to risk people's lives for your movie. I seem to recall seeing how this is done professionally. I believe a type of fragile clear plastic is used and a tiny explosive charge inside a device drives a metal pin into the "glass" and makes it shatter.

August 8th, 2006, 10:53 AM	#15
Alex Sprinkle Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Moore, Oklahoma Posts: 408	I'm going to have to side with Keith a few posts back. If you have a shot out of focus (background) of people moving behind the glass, then have them refracted as they pass "behind" it (the one that's not really there, but will be added later when you chroma key it). I'm interested in learning more about this "pin/explosion" from the previous post though. Sounds interesting.