Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?

Ryan Elder · December 30th, 2019, 12:40 PM

Well so far I have just found fictional narratives better, cause since it's scripted I know what's going to happen, and where everything is going.

I could try documentaries, and focus on that, it's just why try the more difficult challenging genre? Shouldn't I tackle the easier one?

Brian Drysdale · December 30th, 2019, 12:55 PM

Because it may not be easier for the audience to watch.

Ryan Elder · December 30th, 2019, 03:16 PM

So the documentary project so far, was easier for the audience to watch?

Brian Drysdale · December 30th, 2019, 05:43 PM

It depends on how good a film maker you are, but if the audience is into natural history they'll accept quite a lot.

With dramas they tend to be more demanding and there's more to go wrong in making a drama.

Ryan Elder · December 30th, 2019, 08:04 PM

Oh okay, I can understand that for drama, or fiction. I just thought it would be easier to make since it's scripted and you know what was going to happen and where everything is going.

Brian Drysdale · December 31st, 2019, 03:12 AM

In a documentary you're dealing with real people in the real world. In fiction, you're trying to create characters with actors, who can be miscast or of variable quality, can be emotionally fragile or have an overbearing ego, plus deal with the outside world not matching your fictional world.

The result can be that you get something that doesn't really work and you only think you know where everything is going.

Ryan Elder · December 31st, 2019, 11:50 AM

Yeah that's true. I guess I am just not cut out for documentary, in the sense of where I would go with one, and what the theme would be, compared to fiction, but I can try. What is it about me that is better at documentary filmmaking though, since I find it more challenging?

There is one filmmaker I worked with not too long ago and she wanted to make a documentary on a true murder crime story that happened where we live. However, she had trouble getting people to want to talk about it, and ended up scrapping it. I told her that she should instead maybe just write it as a drama with actors, and change the names around, but still base it on the true story, just with the names changed around. She took my suggestion. However, if documentaries are easier to make in some ways, do you think I should talk her back into doing it as a documentary and getting the people to want to talk more?

Brian Drysdale · December 31st, 2019, 12:46 PM

Many fiction crime films are based on real life events.

Part of documentary film making is having access, if you don't a major selling point is lost. The TV market has a big demand for documentaries and you're more likely get work as a director in that sector, than directing feature films.

Ryan Elder · December 31st, 2019, 12:48 PM

Sure I can do that, if the opportunity arises. It's just hard to get people to open up about serious true events it seems, but maybe there are books on how to do that as well. So it's not that if I have more of a knack for making documentaries, based on the footage you saw, it's just I am more likely to get a job there?

Brian Drysdale · December 31st, 2019, 01:55 PM

It's not that hard to get people to open up, just not everyone wants to, but it's surprising how many people will. There are books on all genres of film and TV production.

Ryan Elder · December 31st, 2019, 02:53 PM

Well it's mostly police and witnesses involved in the case. They say they are not legally compelled to talk about it, but witnesses talk to the media in other cases, all the time, so I don't think they would get into any real trouble though.

Brian Drysdale · December 31st, 2019, 03:57 PM

It's up to the individuals, they're not compelled to talk to you, so a lot of documentary making is building up trust, which can take time.

Ryan Elder · December 31st, 2019, 07:14 PM

Oh okay thanks. I also have another documentary like short film coming up. I was wondering, if a person in being interviewed studders and stammers, how many takes is it good to to do for interviews?

The project is promoting a martial arts training center. However, they do not want to go over any storyboards of the shots for fighting. They want me to come up with the shots as I go and just sort of wing it. Which I feel I can do it's just the camera movement is tough, if I do not know where they are going in advance... kind of like the birds in the previous project. Is it just a matter of getting use to moving the camera, not knowing where the subjects are going to move, as well as getting use to telephoto lenses to emphasize the movement?

Brian Drysdale · January 1st, 2020, 02:25 AM

Don't stop and do another take, just keep going as if nothing has happened and after a couple more questions and answers come back to the same question, If they have a natural stammer, keep them relaxed and allow them to develop a flow. Use cutaways of what they're talking about to remove any serous studders or pauses.

Interviews can be pretty long, so don't be surprised at 30 minutes to an hour for a documentary interview.

As you become more experienced with camera work you will be able to sense where the movements are going better. They use this aspect of covering fights and battles in feature films. so that they look less staged, Spielberg used it in "Saving Private Ryan". Hand held works for close stuff, that's what they do for cage fighting and boxing, with the cameras positioned just outside in the corners etc. Get plenty of cutaways of people watching, it can be from any fight, not just the one you filmed, the camera is a great at lying.

Since it's not a public bout, you can get close in on the mat with the fighters, just don;t get in their way..

Ryan Elder · January 1st, 2020, 02:42 AM

Okay thanks. And I would really like if there was a seperate DP/camera operator who covered this department, but I keep finding myself having to do all the camera movement and shots myself. But I will try to get a feel for it.

As for coming back to questions, I can do that, I just don't like having to insert cutaways, cause I feel that I would rather try to get it right, rather have to come back and then cut away in between. There was one documentary project I did before, where I was able to cut out a lot of the studders and stammers, and recut the dialogue to flow better, over B rool though, so that turned out okay I think. So I can try to do that again, as long as it's likely workable. Thanks.

I don't want to do handheld though, cause when I did before, people told me looked unprofessional and to lock the camera down. So if that's the case, then should I lock the camera down, and track the moving subjects, with pans and tilts then? But if I shoot a martial arts practice fight in a wide shot, I should probably get closer OTS shots of it to I am guessing, but would they martial artists want to do so many shot set ups, do you think?

December 30th, 2019, 12:40 PM	#91
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Well so far I have just found fictional narratives better, cause since it's scripted I know what's going to happen, and where everything is going. I could try documentaries, and focus on that, it's just why try the more difficult challenging genre? Shouldn't I tackle the easier one?

December 30th, 2019, 12:55 PM	#92
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Because it may not be easier for the audience to watch.

December 30th, 2019, 03:16 PM	#93
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? So the documentary project so far, was easier for the audience to watch?

December 30th, 2019, 05:43 PM	#94
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? It depends on how good a film maker you are, but if the audience is into natural history they'll accept quite a lot. With dramas they tend to be more demanding and there's more to go wrong in making a drama.

December 30th, 2019, 08:04 PM	#95
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh okay, I can understand that for drama, or fiction. I just thought it would be easier to make since it's scripted and you know what was going to happen and where everything is going.

December 31st, 2019, 03:12 AM	#96
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? In a documentary you're dealing with real people in the real world. In fiction, you're trying to create characters with actors, who can be miscast or of variable quality, can be emotionally fragile or have an overbearing ego, plus deal with the outside world not matching your fictional world. The result can be that you get something that doesn't really work and you only think you know where everything is going.

December 31st, 2019, 11:50 AM	#97
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Yeah that's true. I guess I am just not cut out for documentary, in the sense of where I would go with one, and what the theme would be, compared to fiction, but I can try. What is it about me that is better at documentary filmmaking though, since I find it more challenging? There is one filmmaker I worked with not too long ago and she wanted to make a documentary on a true murder crime story that happened where we live. However, she had trouble getting people to want to talk about it, and ended up scrapping it. I told her that she should instead maybe just write it as a drama with actors, and change the names around, but still base it on the true story, just with the names changed around. She took my suggestion. However, if documentaries are easier to make in some ways, do you think I should talk her back into doing it as a documentary and getting the people to want to talk more?

December 31st, 2019, 12:46 PM	#98
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Many fiction crime films are based on real life events. Part of documentary film making is having access, if you don't a major selling point is lost. The TV market has a big demand for documentaries and you're more likely get work as a director in that sector, than directing feature films.

December 31st, 2019, 12:48 PM	#99
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Sure I can do that, if the opportunity arises. It's just hard to get people to open up about serious true events it seems, but maybe there are books on how to do that as well. So it's not that if I have more of a knack for making documentaries, based on the footage you saw, it's just I am more likely to get a job there?

December 31st, 2019, 01:55 PM	#100
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? It's not that hard to get people to open up, just not everyone wants to, but it's surprising how many people will. There are books on all genres of film and TV production.

December 31st, 2019, 02:53 PM	#101
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Well it's mostly police and witnesses involved in the case. They say they are not legally compelled to talk about it, but witnesses talk to the media in other cases, all the time, so I don't think they would get into any real trouble though.

December 31st, 2019, 03:57 PM	#102
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? It's up to the individuals, they're not compelled to talk to you, so a lot of documentary making is building up trust, which can take time.

December 31st, 2019, 07:14 PM	#103
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh okay thanks. I also have another documentary like short film coming up. I was wondering, if a person in being interviewed studders and stammers, how many takes is it good to to do for interviews? The project is promoting a martial arts training center. However, they do not want to go over any storyboards of the shots for fighting. They want me to come up with the shots as I go and just sort of wing it. Which I feel I can do it's just the camera movement is tough, if I do not know where they are going in advance... kind of like the birds in the previous project. Is it just a matter of getting use to moving the camera, not knowing where the subjects are going to move, as well as getting use to telephoto lenses to emphasize the movement?

January 1st, 2020, 02:25 AM	#104
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Don't stop and do another take, just keep going as if nothing has happened and after a couple more questions and answers come back to the same question, If they have a natural stammer, keep them relaxed and allow them to develop a flow. Use cutaways of what they're talking about to remove any serous studders or pauses. Interviews can be pretty long, so don't be surprised at 30 minutes to an hour for a documentary interview. As you become more experienced with camera work you will be able to sense where the movements are going better. They use this aspect of covering fights and battles in feature films. so that they look less staged, Spielberg used it in "Saving Private Ryan". Hand held works for close stuff, that's what they do for cage fighting and boxing, with the cameras positioned just outside in the corners etc. Get plenty of cutaways of people watching, it can be from any fight, not just the one you filmed, the camera is a great at lying. Since it's not a public bout, you can get close in on the mat with the fighters, just don;t get in their way..

January 1st, 2020, 02:42 AM	#105
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Okay thanks. And I would really like if there was a seperate DP/camera operator who covered this department, but I keep finding myself having to do all the camera movement and shots myself. But I will try to get a feel for it. As for coming back to questions, I can do that, I just don't like having to insert cutaways, cause I feel that I would rather try to get it right, rather have to come back and then cut away in between. There was one documentary project I did before, where I was able to cut out a lot of the studders and stammers, and recut the dialogue to flow better, over B rool though, so that turned out okay I think. So I can try to do that again, as long as it's likely workable. Thanks. I don't want to do handheld though, cause when I did before, people told me looked unprofessional and to lock the camera down. So if that's the case, then should I lock the camera down, and track the moving subjects, with pans and tilts then? But if I shoot a martial arts practice fight in a wide shot, I should probably get closer OTS shots of it to I am guessing, but would they martial artists want to do so many shot set ups, do you think?