Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?

[Ryan Elder]

Oh really? What are some movies that have been classified as film noir because of production mistakes?

By film noir, I just mean the type of lighting style might suit it. I'm not trying to define film noir of course, I just meant use the lighting style. But I could use other movies lighting styles as examples for a DP if that's best.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

I think what they're saying is any type of lighting beyond diffuse lighting you will struggle with. It is difficult to shape light and then repeat it consistently. So you can expect more of what happened in that Timewine movie. I can tell you've already made up your mind and there is nothing anyone could say to dissuade you...

[Ryan Elder]

Oh I didn't say I made up my mind, I was just saying that I thought film noir style lighting would be best.

Diffused lighting? It's just that when I did diffused lighting before, it always looked flat to me, but is that better? However, maybe the reason why it looked flat is because I lit too much of the room and needed to create dark areas in the frame, to make things more interesting?

But I also thought that I was going to get a good DP, so wouldn't a good DP know how to shape light though?

[Brian Drysdale]

Diffused lighting doesn't have to be flat, you can actually go further with it than hard lighting because of the wrap around you get on faces from the soft light.

What you're talking about is low key or Chiaroscuro lighting, since film noir is more about the content than the lighting. Chinatown isn't partially low key in its lighting, yet it fits in with film noir.

Defining Film Noir - YouTube

Low key lighting was often used in many of the lower budget 1940s private eye films because it was cheaper. Caravaggio is well known for the use of Chiaroscuro in his paintings. The lack of shadow detail is something that's either appropriate for the film or it isn't, although you usually can get a small amount by adding a suitable of amount fill, although you may not want it going everywhere..

If your story is set inside a modern police station, it's unlikely to have dark shadows.

https://www.studiobinder.com/blog/wh...tion-examples/

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay thanks, yes Chiaroscuro lighting. I called it German expressionist lighting sometimes, but wasn't sure if that was the correct term. If a lot of mine is set in a modern police station, does that really matter, though since in old movies that use that lighting, they still had scenes in police stations, that looked somewhat shadowy? I was watching The Big Heat (1953), and the daytime office scenes, still had shadow along the sides of the faces, even though it was daytime.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Like everything you get all your ideas from watching and emulating those movies. Here's the problem, you weren't not on set to see what equipment they used, how much it cost and how it was used? You don't even understand the fundamentals of lighting. I can anticipate your answer to all this... You'll just hire a dp who will wave a magic wand and make it so. Up until now you probably just used what lights you had and pointed them without much thought. Lighting is hard and expensive. This can't be told to especially you in a way you'll understand, without finding it out for yourself.

[Ryan Elder]

Well the thing is, is that if I get a DP, isn't it best to give him samples from other movies, rather than me trying to come up with an original style of my own, and try to explain to him/her, that they have never seen before in other movies? Or is it not a good to show a DP examples from other movies, and have no references, other than what I explain to them?

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Simple, explain what mood you want and work with your dp to achieve it. That's why film noir or like this film is the wrong approach. You're taking something out of context. Do you or your DP have any creativity?

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, why would that type of lighting be the wrong approach, since it's a dark crime thriller and all?

I guess I find it difficult to come up with a completely original look. Even Ridley Scott, copied the film noir looking light style for Blade Runner, so even he was inspired by a previous style. Is that bad?

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Let me use your dumb logic: I like the movie Maltese Falcon I will copy it. The movie needs to be in black and white, everyone should wear suits and fedoras, I need to find an actor who talks like Humphrey Bogart.

Is it wrong to film a movie in black and white, wear suits and fedoras or talk like Bogart? I don't understand this movie is well liked why can't I copy it?

[Ryan Elder]

Well all I said was I wanted similar lighting to some other movies I've seen before. Is that copying too much?

When it comes to the character's clothes though, I came up with my own wardrobe for the characters, without copying any other movies.

[Brian Drysdale]

For this type of lighting you will probably require lighting kit that your DPs may not personally have and if they do, more than they own.

[Brian Drysdale]

For this type of lighting you will probably require lighting kit that your DPs may not personally have and if they do, more than they own.

The use of this lighting will depend on the world of your story. Is it more like Blue Velvet than a 1940s thriller?

Blue Velvet official rerelease trailer - YouTube

[Ryan Elder]

Oh thanks. I've seen Blue Velvet, the lighting is okay in that. I was thinking something more along the lines of The Crow maybe, cause it looks like that old style, but in color:

The Crow - Shooting Scene (Original) HD - YouTube

However, since a lot of the script takes place during the day, I guess it would be like The Crow, but with a daytime spin on it, if that's possible.

Also, Dr. No, comes to mind for more of a police station office setting:

Major Boothroyd and the new gun [James Bond Semi Essentials] - YouTube

But it was said that maybe I should come up with a lighting style completely original from my imagination, rather than use inspiration from other movies?

So I guess if I had it my way, it would be similar to that kind lighting style, but with a backlight, outlining the actors more.

[Paul R Johnson]

Ryan - get a grip. I know you take things literally, but you're making huge leaps with what we're saying.

Your entire film making philosphy is to watch as many movies as you can and then pull out strands for your rule book. Can you not see this is NOT, in any shape of form a route to success? It's failure positive. Things happen because they work within the movie's context. They do not translate well.

Copying? For you it's disaster. You would be copying an end product without any data whatsoever on 'why' it was done. This is sheer folly! It doesn't work in movies and it doesn't work in music, or performing arts. Actually, this area where I have plenty of experience is a good example. Comedy. Comedians steal jokes from each other. I've heard the exact same joke delivered by perhaps 10 people in a 6 month period. Some modify the joke to their own personality and it works, sometimes better than the original. Other deliver it exactly as the original and it's not so funny, and some just deliver it badly. The exact same joke. Exactly the same happens with magic. Penn and Teller do the same routine as hundreds of magicians. Do they all get the same response? Hopefully, this sideways jump might make you realise that the product at the end is everything.

Pete says you have already decided. Please prove him wrong, because I too figured the same thing. You have made a decision - something you always need support for - and this time, none of us think it's a good move. I get the feeling you think that it will allow worse technique to be acceptable because of the genre - and that's the trouble with Film Noir - it does not really have a specific genre. It's undefinable - like RnB in music. The old Rhythm and Blues origin completely distorted. Nobody knows what RnB actually is any more, and this has happened to film noir. I always privately thought about the noir as meaning dark in content - NOT dark in lighting, but this is what happens in terrible film noir. The watch five minutes and switch off type.

You ask for examples and I can never give them, because I am not a film buff. I watch movies as a consumer for entertainment. I remember the good ones and forget the bad. I don't remember actors or director's names of anything other than ones I like. I can't imagine trying to develop a new product my using movies as metaphors, which is kind of what you do.

You have no confidence in your own ability to create a product, so you use others as your ingredients and it never, ever works. Each scene, tagged with 'inspired by One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest', or 'Pretty woman' or 'Mad Max' or Lawrence of Arabia' is doomed to failure.

For once Ryan, abandon this idea - you just don't know how to do it.