Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?

Brian Drysdale · January 24th, 2020, 04:37 PM

If it's not a good one take action order them to do it again, be totally ruthless, don't allow them thinking time. Treat them like dancers and you're after a certain move.

Pete Cofrancesco · January 24th, 2020, 05:33 PM

At this point we’re beating a dead horse. Most of your problems are about your lack of your ability to come up with a good approach, incorporate some of the clients ideas, and make winning video.

I would have sat them down come up a good plan, film them talking about themselves and why someone would want to take classes. Then go back and film footage that supports the sections you want to highlight. Could be them sparing or teaching. This is a promo video, every thing you do should be done with that goal in mind. Instead you’re Aimlessly filming them and letting them tell you what to do which leads to a purposeless mess.

We can’t help to try to fix what is so painful wrong. But we can’t expect you to do what should come natural.

Josh Bass · January 24th, 2020, 06:21 PM

Were both of those supposed to say “cant” or was one supposed to be a “can”?

If any of you had been in this situation with Ryan’s constraints (no pay, difficult client, almost no time to film) what would you have done?

Would you have simply turned the whole thing down and said “I dont think I can help you?”

Pete Cofrancesco · January 24th, 2020, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

Were both of those supposed to say “cant” or was one supposed to be a “can”?

If any of you had been in this situation with Ryan’s constraints (no pay, difficult client, almost no time to film) what would you have done?

Would you have simply turned the whole thing down and said “I dont think I can help you?”

I’m saying we can’t resist the temptation of giving him advice despite the fact he is unable implement it. Ryan has issues of perception, communication, seeing the large picture, thinking on his feet..

Even though all of us would approach the situation differently we would still be able evaluate it and come to a sensible decision. I don’t believe this is a client issue because this sort of scenario has played out multiple times with different clients. The only constant is Ryan.

Ryan Elder · January 24th, 2020, 09:12 PM

Okay thanks for all the advice. Sorry if I had trouble taking it.

Actually I think tonights shoot went a lot better. I tried out some different approaches and thought of some as I went along rather than trying to stick to the original plan. I did cross the 180 degree line for a couple of shots, but it's not so far over that it's really bad I don't think. I think it was more important to show the moves rather than stay fully behind the line.

But that is just my perception of it. But I think tonight's went better so far from what I could tell so far. I went hand held for some of the shots, and that helped I think, hoping it's not too sloppy. Thanks for the suggestion to do that. One thing I noticed is that of the two martial artists one of them seems better so far at doing the same thing over and over again compared to the other one. Before it was just the other one taking the lead with the moves. So maybe I can try to push for him to do most of the moves and the other just follows his lead, but not sure if they will be happy with that.

John Nantz · January 24th, 2020, 10:33 PM

Here ya go, Ryan. The decision tree to the main problems:

Problem #1: The client talks too much and there isn’t enough media to provide for the voice over.
Solution 1A: Do a cut then insert a slo-mo clip that repeats the part they’re talking about so the viewer can get a second chance to see the detail.
Solution 1B: Do a cut then insert a clip that repeats in regular time, and maybe repeats as many times as it takes to catch up with the voice-over (VO).

Problem #2: It’s difficult to keep their whole body, the two of them, in frame.
Solution 2A: Move back far enough with the cam so they will always be in frame. Your problem here, and I emphasize the word “your”, is part of the take is not clearly viewable, nor not viewable at all, and that, apparently, is, and has been, a constant deal breaker.
Solution 2B: If they complain one can see the detail because they’re too far back then … there are a number of pretty much deal-breaker options:
2B1: Tell them that’s it, can’t be fixed (because you have only one cam)
2B2: Ask them if they want another take. (Note: They already used two takes)
2B3: If they “leave it” then that works. Session and shoot ends.
2B4: None of the above: [ fill in the blank. ]

Problem #3: They say the take is good, or good enough.
3A: What’s the problem?
3B: Good enough, BUT …
3B1: The take wasn’t long enough for the VO
3B2: Is this a promo, sales pitch, or an instructional video? (Guess I don’t get it … again)

Problem #4: The director/DP does not want to use his, or their, smart phone as a second cam.
4A: Director/DP says it doesn’t look professional. Note: the only 3 people that know are in the room. Nobody …. but NOBODY, watching will know what the video was shot with. Well, maybe we might but that would be hearsay. Anyway, Dir/DP refuses and kills the gig.
4B: Dir/DP caves in and decides to do a hat trick, saving this gig by using his smart phone. Everybody here breaths a sigh of relief that it finally in the edit room and will be finished. *sigh*, or *SIGH*?

Problem #5: Which cam is fixed, and which is handheld?
5A: With the cam on the tripod set on wide, use the phone to catch a B-roll angle
5B: With the smart phone set on the tripod, use the cam to catch a B-roll angle
Note: the B-roll angle doesn’t have to be right up close, plan to use zoom in post. Ditto the tripod cam on wide.
5C: It is possible, in edit, to remove someone who gets in frame if the tripod cam is on a tripod. Believe it or not. Another editing trick.

Disclaimer: All these other guys are way more professional than I am so consider the source. But, I would sure use that phone and I would sure do a hand-held shot. The “stage” and the actors are not conducive to doing it the way you want. It’s time to quit asking questions, give it your (and their) best shot, and get to the editing room.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Another thing that is different is that with the martial arts video, they want to show off the moves, which means trying to cut to close up for parts that are not as well seen.

That's a given, so yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

I think for the next shoot I am going to go in without storyboards, and whatever they do, try to come up with new shots on the fly. It's just I fear that will not turn out well without a plan. But maybe it might be better.

Would be interesting to find out and I hope there is a pleasant surprise and it is better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

The thing about doing the fights in one take though, is that I want to cut out the fluff, or the parts that are not as good. So that is why I want something to cut to from different angles of course. However, before I was told the cuts are awkward. How do you cut out a section of fluff, without the cut being awkward?

Ever watch televised golf? They find ways to fill in the "fluff" by talking about stuff. Are those who said the cuts were awkward the same ones who said the takes were good?
Different angles ... take a B-roll cam. Yes!

Edit:
Note: "A good video today is better than a perfect video tomorrow"

Gotta get this sucker out the door!!!

John Nantz · January 24th, 2020, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Okay thanks for all the advice. Sorry if I had trouble taking it.

Actually I think tonights shoot went a lot better. I tried out some different approaches and thought of some as I went along rather than trying to stick to the original plan. I did cross the 180 degree line for a couple of shots, but it's not so far over that it's really bad I don't think. I think it was more important to show the moves rather than stay fully behind the line.

But that is just my perception of it. But I think tonight's went better so far from what I could tell so far.

Very good to hear that!!!
By the way, your new post came while I was writing mine but I didn't want to start all over so posted it anyway. It's a good feeling when you feel the shoot went well, and let's hope it did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

I went hand held for some of the shots, and that helped I think, hoping it's not too sloppy.

It's an action video so it'll be okay, not to worry. We're interested in the story and not how Hollywood it is. Actually, as been said before, Hollywood does do hand-held so not to worry. Probably not so much back in the Ben Hur CinemaScope days with the big 35mm cams though.

Ryan Elder · January 25th, 2020, 12:41 AM

Oh okay thanks. I did break the 180 degree rule, so you can see more of the moves, since the martial artists keep constantly turning around. However, what in order not to confuse the audience what if I actually flip the video to the next shot in the editing, with the narration saying "Let's flip to the opposite side", or something like that?

Paul R Johnson · January 25th, 2020, 02:41 AM

no no no. If it's confusing after the edit, the edit was wrong - flipping a shot can cause a subconscious confusion - a visual spasm. The 180 rule is NOT about measuring angles, 179 is not good, and 181 is OK is not how it works. At what point does left become right? It's just reversal. If your reverse angle shot reveals something the viewer needs to see, it's fine. TV frequently 'break' the rule on big shows with no issue whatsoever. Good examples being things like the ..... got talent shows, or x-factor, where you see stage end shots out into the audience, cut with audience to stage. Seeing the reverse angle when dancers are dancing or people suspended over crazy dangerous obstacles - their right suddenly becomes left and it doesn't matter because left right is not important - the audience at home understand the swap without knowing. Doing it badly grates on the teeth. Doing it appropriately works fine. Don't use these guidelines as laws, as in thou shalt not cross the line.

With training videos, it doesn't have to look beautiful, it isn't Lawrence of Arabia. People watch to service a question.

I watch youtube videos to solve problems. How do I do X, Y and Z in Premiere, or photoshop. I usually discover somebody with no people skills at all boring me to death, so I skip over what I already know and find that section where they show me the hidden menu, or the drop down I didnt know was there. Then I never even get to the end. I'm back into my edit, the video forgotten.

What do your clients want? What quality standards do they have, if any, and who are the audience. Shoot the video, edit it and present it to them. I'd also tell them that as a free/low cost video, you delete footage after two weeks to make space. This will either generate a request not to with the possibility of money as compensation, or they'll say nothing and you can forget them.

Brian Drysdale · January 25th, 2020, 02:44 AM

"Lets see that move" or "lets have a closer look at that" or similar will probably do the job. The viewers aren't interested in the film making mechanics. As Paul says, don't change the geography of the scene by flipping.

Pete Cofrancesco · January 25th, 2020, 03:59 AM

This thread has become so convoluted I can’t follow what are truly “problems” and what type of video you’re trying to shoot. Maybe you should just upload the next installment of this video and we can make comments based on something concrete. Please stop banging on about the 180 rule and your compulsion to break it. How much more time do you plan spending on this free commercial?

Paul R Johnson · January 25th, 2020, 07:24 AM

even training videos 'cheat' - you give the client what they want and they go away happy. My second one for a commercial laundry company 'needed' shots from inside a tunnel washing machine they'd spent half a million on - a 6m continuous drum where dirty washing goes in one end and clean washing comes out the other. Trouble was, inside it was dark and popping in the gopro one end and collecting it the other revealed nothing at all. I popped it in my own washing machine at home and got fragments of light through suds, and loads of spinning. I never mentioned it, they didn't ask - everyone happy. Ryan consults his ever growing rule book then explains it to the clients, who in traditional client manner don't understand, don't want to understand and just want it sorted, with no time delay. I just don't see why this wasn't a one session project.

Pete Cofrancesco · January 25th, 2020, 08:28 AM

Wouldn’t putting a gopro inside a spinning washer break the 180 rule? ;-p

If he was getting paid then it would have made more sense doing what the client wants and moving on. This project makes no sense on so many levels. No money, not reel worthy, and experience doing things the wrong way.

John Nantz · January 25th, 2020, 08:51 AM

The experts have read the question ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh okay thanks. I did break the 180 degree rule, so you can see more of the moves, since the martial artists keep constantly turning around. However, what in order not to confuse the audience what if I actually flip the video to the next shot in the editing, with the narration saying "Let's flip to the opposite side", or something like that?

.... and the reply is unanimous and the answer is ....: "NO!"

What to do now?
How far into the original take did the problem occur?

Question to Ryan:
Can everybody dress up the same way as when the shot went awry, put the cam and audio on the same settings, get the actors positioned in the same area they were in, then do another take taking it from just before where the problem was, or from the other side, or whatever it takes to fix the problem?

One good part is there are only two actors, the lighting and set is exactly the same, and they know what they intended to do. With your video record one can position them at some point so there isn't a big jump and with an angle change of some sort that should help.

I like Paul's creative washing machine trick. See, we have to think creatively. A lot of really good replies above.

Paul R Johnson · January 25th, 2020, 09:19 AM

Normally you get away with intercutting different take material. I did fail recently though. I ended up doing a multitrack audio recording in a church, WITH 3 cameras and because of a last minute date change, no cameramen. Just me, running around and trying to react to things that unexpectedly happened - like all of a sudden a soloist appearing somewhere unmentioned. So I'd run to the camera best suited and reframe - two hours of this kind of thing. One section however gave me 5 seconds of totally unusable material, and everything C-roll, forget B just didn't work bar one very wide distant shot. I used this and the damn conductor noticed her hands were out of sync, so I had to re-sync that cutaway to match the music down beats. Nobody would ever have noticed - but they did.

I'd imagine in martial arts that there would be lots of perfectly useful cutaway shots - closeups of hands, feet, rear views that are not move specific. The public and most specialists are too into the subject to look critically at the techniques. In an instructional video there is no narrative, no real story, no cinematographic cleverness, no need for shallow DoF, no real need for people to even know the participants. The focus is on techniques and as long as the critical sequences are recorded in sufficient detail, all is well.

January 24th, 2020, 04:37 PM	#571
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,149	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? If it's not a good one take action order them to do it again, be totally ruthless, don't allow them thinking time. Treat them like dancers and you're after a certain move.

January 24th, 2020, 05:33 PM	#572
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,004	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? At this point we’re beating a dead horse. Most of your problems are about your lack of your ability to come up with a good approach, incorporate some of the clients ideas, and make winning video. I would have sat them down come up a good plan, film them talking about themselves and why someone would want to take classes. Then go back and film footage that supports the sections you want to highlight. Could be them sparing or teaching. This is a promo video, every thing you do should be done with that goal in mind. Instead you’re Aimlessly filming them and letting them tell you what to do which leads to a purposeless mess. We can’t help to try to fix what is so painful wrong. But we can’t expect you to do what should come natural.

January 24th, 2020, 06:21 PM	#573
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Were both of those supposed to say “cant” or was one supposed to be a “can”? If any of you had been in this situation with Ryan’s constraints (no pay, difficult client, almost no time to film) what would you have done? Would you have simply turned the whole thing down and said “I dont think I can help you?” __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

January 24th, 2020, 09:12 PM	#575
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Okay thanks for all the advice. Sorry if I had trouble taking it. Actually I think tonights shoot went a lot better. I tried out some different approaches and thought of some as I went along rather than trying to stick to the original plan. I did cross the 180 degree line for a couple of shots, but it's not so far over that it's really bad I don't think. I think it was more important to show the moves rather than stay fully behind the line. But that is just my perception of it. But I think tonight's went better so far from what I could tell so far. I went hand held for some of the shots, and that helped I think, hoping it's not too sloppy. Thanks for the suggestion to do that. One thing I noticed is that of the two martial artists one of them seems better so far at doing the same thing over and over again compared to the other one. Before it was just the other one taking the lead with the moves. So maybe I can try to push for him to do most of the moves and the other just follows his lead, but not sure if they will be happy with that.

January 25th, 2020, 12:41 AM	#578
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh okay thanks. I did break the 180 degree rule, so you can see more of the moves, since the martial artists keep constantly turning around. However, what in order not to confuse the audience what if I actually flip the video to the next shot in the editing, with the narration saying "Let's flip to the opposite side", or something like that?

January 25th, 2020, 02:41 AM	#579
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,039	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? no no no. If it's confusing after the edit, the edit was wrong - flipping a shot can cause a subconscious confusion - a visual spasm. The 180 rule is NOT about measuring angles, 179 is not good, and 181 is OK is not how it works. At what point does left become right? It's just reversal. If your reverse angle shot reveals something the viewer needs to see, it's fine. TV frequently 'break' the rule on big shows with no issue whatsoever. Good examples being things like the ..... got talent shows, or x-factor, where you see stage end shots out into the audience, cut with audience to stage. Seeing the reverse angle when dancers are dancing or people suspended over crazy dangerous obstacles - their right suddenly becomes left and it doesn't matter because left right is not important - the audience at home understand the swap without knowing. Doing it badly grates on the teeth. Doing it appropriately works fine. Don't use these guidelines as laws, as in thou shalt not cross the line. With training videos, it doesn't have to look beautiful, it isn't Lawrence of Arabia. People watch to service a question. I watch youtube videos to solve problems. How do I do X, Y and Z in Premiere, or photoshop. I usually discover somebody with no people skills at all boring me to death, so I skip over what I already know and find that section where they show me the hidden menu, or the drop down I didnt know was there. Then I never even get to the end. I'm back into my edit, the video forgotten. What do your clients want? What quality standards do they have, if any, and who are the audience. Shoot the video, edit it and present it to them. I'd also tell them that as a free/low cost video, you delete footage after two weeks to make space. This will either generate a request not to with the possibility of money as compensation, or they'll say nothing and you can forget them.

January 25th, 2020, 02:44 AM	#580
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,149	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? "Lets see that move" or "lets have a closer look at that" or similar will probably do the job. The viewers aren't interested in the film making mechanics. As Paul says, don't change the geography of the scene by flipping.

January 25th, 2020, 03:59 AM	#581
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,004	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? This thread has become so convoluted I can’t follow what are truly “problems” and what type of video you’re trying to shoot. Maybe you should just upload the next installment of this video and we can make comments based on something concrete. Please stop banging on about the 180 rule and your compulsion to break it. How much more time do you plan spending on this free commercial? Last edited by Pete Cofrancesco; January 25th, 2020 at 06:02 AM.

January 25th, 2020, 07:24 AM	#582
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,039	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? even training videos 'cheat' - you give the client what they want and they go away happy. My second one for a commercial laundry company 'needed' shots from inside a tunnel washing machine they'd spent half a million on - a 6m continuous drum where dirty washing goes in one end and clean washing comes out the other. Trouble was, inside it was dark and popping in the gopro one end and collecting it the other revealed nothing at all. I popped it in my own washing machine at home and got fragments of light through suds, and loads of spinning. I never mentioned it, they didn't ask - everyone happy. Ryan consults his ever growing rule book then explains it to the clients, who in traditional client manner don't understand, don't want to understand and just want it sorted, with no time delay. I just don't see why this wasn't a one session project.

January 25th, 2020, 08:28 AM	#583
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,004	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Wouldn’t putting a gopro inside a spinning washer break the 180 rule? ;-p If he was getting paid then it would have made more sense doing what the client wants and moving on. This project makes no sense on so many levels. No money, not reel worthy, and experience doing things the wrong way.

January 25th, 2020, 09:19 AM	#585
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,039	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Normally you get away with intercutting different take material. I did fail recently though. I ended up doing a multitrack audio recording in a church, WITH 3 cameras and because of a last minute date change, no cameramen. Just me, running around and trying to react to things that unexpectedly happened - like all of a sudden a soloist appearing somewhere unmentioned. So I'd run to the camera best suited and reframe - two hours of this kind of thing. One section however gave me 5 seconds of totally unusable material, and everything C-roll, forget B just didn't work bar one very wide distant shot. I used this and the damn conductor noticed her hands were out of sync, so I had to re-sync that cutaway to match the music down beats. Nobody would ever have noticed - but they did. I'd imagine in martial arts that there would be lots of perfectly useful cutaway shots - closeups of hands, feet, rear views that are not move specific. The public and most specialists are too into the subject to look critically at the techniques. In an instructional video there is no narrative, no real story, no cinematographic cleverness, no need for shallow DoF, no real need for people to even know the participants. The focus is on techniques and as long as the critical sequences are recorded in sufficient detail, all is well.