Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?

[Josh Bass]

At this point, with these people, I would take it even farther and do something that's down to the moment by moment details of the videos, since these folks seem to need all the guidance in the world. Something like this. You'd figure out the best shot for each bit of narration etc., then shoot with the script in mind, so you know exactly what you do and don't need.

[Greg Smith]

Josh, that just won't work for Ryan. Nowhere in your sample script does it mention star filters. :-)

[Josh Bass]

I'm sure they were on another page somewhere.

[Ryan Elder]

Well I came up with a shot list but it didn't work for the next shoot cause their movements it turns out were completely different than what I had in my head, so I couldn't move the camera the way I thought it had to be moved.

Here is another issue. It was said before, not to shoot perpendicularly. However, if I don't, then the actors will go out of focus if they are not fighting on an angle that is not perpendicular. And I can't pull focus since the moves they are doing are unpredictable. Even if we talk about it beforehand, it comes out completely different than how I envision it.

And it's hard to rehearse cause they really don't like doing several takes. They even looked at the footage as I played it back and said it was good and were finished for the day, even though I didn't think it was good.

Is this why for example Boxing is shot at a perpendicular angle often, cause they can't predict where they are going to go and they don't want to loose focus?

[Brian Drysdale]

Keeping focus is a skill that camera operators on these types of productions need, however, it can only be learnt with practice.. Having peaking in the viewfinder assists with this and a good tripod allows you to smoothly follow the action.

Follow the action that's happening before you, not what you think it's going to be, read their bodies so you can sense which way they're going. If you can't follow it, you may be too tight, so loosen off the shot.

Stopping down will give you a greater depth of field.

I'm not sure what you mean by perpendicular, from what you're saying the moves have to be in the plane of focus, which may or may not be perpendicular, depending on how you set up the camera.

The shot list just needs to very general, on things like this the action will be different, so you need to think on your feet.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks, it's just hard to cause the are not hitting the same marks every time, which they are not use to of course.

By perpendicular I mean how it was said before that the angle I chose was boring cause it goes from left to right, and they are on an even plain if that makes sense?

But if I do it that way, they don't go out of focus, cause they are the same distance from the camera the whole time. If I shoot on a non-perpendicular angle, than they go further away from the camera, as they fight, or closer, which makes focus pulling harder.

I can only deepen the DOF so much though before it's too dark. Plus I was told before to put the background more of focus if possible, but I can open it up sharp if that's better for a deeper DOF. I think the problem is for me, is that the fighting is changing so much and I really need more rehearsal with them and more planning with them, but it's been tough to get. I think it's because before, they are use to shooting on their phones, with past videos and on their phones, everything is in focus, so not as much planning is needed. So maybe I just need to think like that, and increase the gain quite a bit higher, and just shoot with a deeper DOF, hoping that will work, but then gain and noise is raised higher though.

If I had access to the location more I could light this place better, and rehearse just the camera settings and lighting, but I only have access to it when they want to shoot though. But maybe I should just raise the gain to 1600 and not lower it and treat it like cellphone shooting with a much deeper DOF, if that's better.

[Josh Bass]

You could just get a more camcordery type cam with a smaller sensor/deep DOF for shoots of this nature, where “artistry” is a low priority. Youre used to DSLRs but a fixed lens small ENG cam would probably be better. More versatile zoom range, XLR inputs, and deep focus. It doenst have to be new unless you need 4k (hint: you probably dont). Anything HD with manual controls and XLR inputs would probably work. We STILL use the Sony EX1 for some jobs and that cam came out in 2008! Could probably be had for very cheap. Go a tier down AND old and you could probably get something for next to nothing. Used, obviously. DSLRs are not great for everything.

[Ryan Elder]

I could. But I might just have to work with what I have now, as I don't have time to shop for anything new I don't think at the moment, depending on price. One person I know has a camcorder but not sure if it's HD. I can check. Thanks.

I thought maybe it's me and I can try planning better but the moves are not turning out like I had envisioned from the conversations, in terms of predicting movement.

[Josh Bass]

This is that part everyone keeps harping on about how you have to learn how to think on your feet on these kinds of shoots, with these kind of clients (the type who are somewhat difficult and don't want collaborate with the videographer). They're still giving you only 90 minutes per day to set up and record all this? I've seen this stuff take hours, between figuring out where the talent has to be at each point and where the cam needs to be too catch them, and multiple takes.

You should do a deep think and really ask yourself if you're cut out for this type of work (thinking on your feet/not being able to plan/tough clients), and if not, bow out/walk away. Not everyone is. Just cause you can work on movies with actors who know they're in for a long day and live to be told what to do, where you can at least partially plan every detail, doesn't mean you're suited to all forms of video production.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Ryan when we give you suggestions you seem to panic and put yourself in a box. There are a number of modifications you could do if you're having focus problem. Shooting 6-10ft away from the subject, using a wide angle lens, and setting the aperture to 5.6 should give you ample dof to work with. If you're still having problems you can reduce the angle of view to maybe just 15-20 degrees. It's true that camcorder eng style cameras are better suited to this work with their smaller sensors that have a larger dof. I still think that an apc size dslr should still be able to handle this job if used properly.

[Josh Bass]

If they're only giving him 90 minutes per shooting session that's not a lot of time for an inexperienced one-man band to get things done...setting up, figuring out the focus issue, seeing the move and how to break it down into shots/angles, all while working with a somewhat uncooperative client.

Hell, I would struggle with what he's trying to accomplish under those conditions, and probably wouldn't have taken this on at all.

There are definitely folks who could get it done, but I'm thinking of people who've been at this for 25 years and just "know" stuff at first glance, and can think in sequences, etc. Can almost see the edit in their heads and know how to shoot for it.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks. I definitely would do a lot better if I had more than 90 minutes at a time per shoot I feel.

As for moving the camera further away, well they keep coming close to it, so they still leave the DOF. Also, the more I move it away, the further away they are when they start, so it's hard to see the moves they want to show then, but maybe that's okay...

[Josh Bass]

Ok let's take a different tack

How much do they actually care about this whole thing and how it comes out? As I said before, clients who care, going by many corporate shoots I've done, are a lot more anal about stuff, perfectionist, and aren't like "eh that's fine let's move on" when the videographer is unhappy (within reason...there ARE videographers who are TOO perfectionist...but this doesn't sound like you in this case).

I mean, I'm sure your client would PREFER it come out well, but if doesn't, do you think they might just never put it on their site and shelve it? Are they paying you? Are they paying you WELL? Your descriptions of your interactions with them have all the hallmarks of someone treating this like a "be nice it works out but no biggie if it doesn't" kinda project.

If that's the case, then maybe just do what you can within your many constraints and don't stress, do better on the next.

[Ryan Elder]

I'm not being payed I took this on as a volunteer gig for something to do in the meantime, since I thought maybe I should take on more different types of projects.

I think they are in a rush a to get it done. They seem like they want to, but definitely want to rush it out there it seems.

[Josh Bass]

Ok, so here's what I perceive to be happening:

They have NOTHING to lose here...there is no money or anything else at stake here for them. If this doesn't turn out well for them, there is nothing lost if they don't use the videos (hint: they probably won't) on their site.

This means they can run the shoot terribly and it ultimately doesn't matter, because, again, nothing is really at stake.

This is often the case with volunteer work. Where you would THINK a client would be grateful beyond belief that someone is donating their time and gear to make something for them, often times it is the opposite and the lack of money comes with a total lack of respect for the videographer's time etc. So basically they're like "eh, this guy volunteered so why not? Whatever. Who cares." I don't know if that pisses you off, but it should. You're trying to grow and they almost couldn't give less of a crap about the whole thing.

Do what that info what you will.