Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?

Ryan Elder · January 14th, 2020, 06:23 PM

Well I tried being more aggressive but it wasn't working. I asked him if we can do takes from this many angles, and he said it was too many takes for him to keep track of, for example. He also gave me ideas of what he wants to do next for the video, but should I just reject them and say no?

I guess I am more comfortable being the one making all the decisions, if it's a project where I am the one spending the money and producing. Plus I don't think he sees me as the director but more of a camera operator. But even if he is going to promote himself, doesn't he still have to explain some moves, in order to sell himself on what he is talking about?

Greg Smith · January 15th, 2020, 02:12 AM

How does the client expect to distribute and promote this video? Is it intended as a piece for YouTube, a local broadcast commercial, late night public access channel, playing in a booth at a trade show, something prospective clients are handed on a DVD when visiting the studio, what? Will the potential viewers see this video BEFORE or AFTER they have first met the instructors in person? If it's intended to be BEFORE, how will they find this particular production among, say, the thousands of martial arts videos on YouTube? What makes it stand out? Is it part of a broader marketing effort that includes other media, public demonstrations, etc.?

These questions make a big difference in deciding what the emphasis in the piece should be, how long it should be, and how it should be packaged with "extras" like graphics, music and B-roll footage.

I realize that what we saw originally is not a finished, edited package. But the whole product kind of feels as though one of the guys said, "Hey, dude, we should make a video," and the other said, "Sure, sounds like fun," without thinking much at all about how, where and why it would be used.

Ryan Elder · January 15th, 2020, 02:29 AM

Youtube and facebook page for them, as well as their own website. Yeah I get that same feeling from them so far. I'm not sure how they planned to get noticed more.

Brian Drysdale · January 15th, 2020, 02:30 AM

This is where you have to give the video some structure on paper and agree to it before you start filming. If you don't they will just start changing things as they go along.

These are shots, not takes if it's from different angles, if he can't remember more than a minute or so, break the video down, so that he doesn't need to remember 5 minutes. You are the one who needs to now where everything goes, not him.

I assume this video lasts about 5 minutes at the most. If it's a promo being shorter would be better, viewers sense within the first 30 seconds or a minute at the most if the guy is a good teacher and knows his stuff, the rest just confirms the first impression,

Is this a series of instructional videos? it sounds rather like that's what he wants.

Ryan Elder · January 15th, 2020, 02:46 AM

Okay thanks, he said he would rather do a lot of it in one take though, rather than break it down into sections. Unless that's not good?

It feels like a promo video to me. He describes some of his moves, and then talks about the promo stuff of what he has to offfer in his teachings. At least that is how it reads on paper, with what he wants.

Paul R Johnson · January 15th, 2020, 02:58 AM

"He said...." This is where you move into options. "OK - must admit this worries me, but let's try it on one take, and see if it's possible. If it goes wrong, then we'll need to break it into sections, or you're going to get tired, and make more mistakes, and we don't want to do that". You have given them what they want, but they already have a plan B, which of course you need.

I'm concerned that when given the suggestion about being too passive, you made a jump to the word aggressive! This is BAD. In fact, being aggressive is the worst possible working arrangement with a client. You are thinking about the passive/aggressive personality disorder. This is NOT what we are talking about.

Our use of the word passive is where clients ask for things you know will fail, and you offer no resistance and go with it. Stage two is taking this depressed and possibly stressed client and providing support and guidance to make the product and process work. NOT aggression. The trick is usually letting the client think they got their way, when you got yours.

This is a train wreck of a project unless you get control and make it work. I'd start with a very simple set of questions. Who are the audience? What do they want the video to do? How is it best presented? They MUST give you solid answers to these simple questions. If they cannot answer them with immediate, solid and considered responses, then you will never get to the end because they have movable goalposts. Nothing you can do will make them happy. Walk away telling them you don't think you are the best person to do this job, but tell them that if they can decide the direction they want to go, you'd be happy to reconsider once they' decided.

Pete Cofrancesco · January 15th, 2020, 07:14 AM

This is so ridiculous, we’re wasted so much much time giving Ryan all this advice only to find out he’s not even remotely in charge of this project. I was fooled into thinking someone who is planning to direct a feature film would at least be able to take the clients ideas and come up with a plan how to film it. A guy who went to film school is letting a would be karate instructor have full control of whatever this is.

I shouldn’t get mad at him because I think even though he talks a good game here, in person he doesn’t have ability lead or direct. I’m left with a feeling he suffers from some form of autism. I keep on expecting with more experience he’s going to gain the confidence to take charge but I’m now of the opinion that unfortunately this is good as it gets. I’m not blaming him it’s just pointless for us to give him advice.

Paul R Johnson · January 15th, 2020, 09:41 AM

I think this is why, unlike so many other posters who appear and vanish, we've stuck with Ryan, hoping that we can guide him.I have a lad who works for me who has Asberger's and he is rather driven like Ryan, and he's always dependable and useful, and I've been gently exploring his limits and while by no means an expert on these things I've done pretty well getting him integrated with the others. Hence why I personally, keep trying with Ryan - but we do seem to go two steps forward, then back three sometimes. From our side, it's infuriating to see many of our suggestions really badly misunderstood, and creating tangents to shoot off into. Ryan'e been plugging away but this one is a very good example of him being asked to do something and being way off the mark because he doesn't understand the clients, and worse, they seem unable to understand anything about making videos. It really makes no sense flogging this dead horse. The two people we see in the video clearly are clueless about their real need for the video and how to make it good.

We just struggle on. The advice we are giving here is simply give up and move on, and Ryan does not do this - but this time, he should.

It's a poor subject, presented by poor talent, shot by poor old Ryan who lost control from shot 1.

Pete Cofrancesco · January 15th, 2020, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

I think this is why, unlike so many other posters who appear and vanish, we've stuck with Ryan, hoping that we can guide him.I have a lad who works for me who has Asberger's and he is rather driven like Ryan, and he's always dependable and useful, and I've been gently exploring his limits and while by no means an expert on these things I've done pretty well getting him integrated with the others. Hence why I personally, keep trying with Ryan - but we do seem to go two steps forward, then back three sometimes. From our side, it's infuriating to see many of our suggestions really badly misunderstood, and creating tangents to shoot off into. Ryan'e been plugging away but this one is a very good example of him being asked to do something and being way off the mark because he doesn't understand the clients, and worse, they seem unable to understand anything about making videos. It really makes no sense flogging this dead horse. The two people we see in the video clearly are clueless about their real need for the video and how to make it good.

We just struggle on. The advice we are giving here is simply give up and move on, and Ryan does not do this - but this time, he should.

It's a poor subject, presented by poor talent, shot by poor old Ryan who lost control from shot 1.

If you don't have the ability to lead that's ok, everyone has their limitations, we can't all be Steve Spielberg. There are plenty of positions like camera operator, boom operator, etc that you follow what you're told. Ryan should be satisfied with doing that instead of trying to pursue directing feature films. Can you imagine a 50k budgeted feature film in his hands?

Now that we have a clear picture of what's going on with this project, a clueless client who's winging it and Ryan who's just along for the ride. I don't think there is any advice that would make much of a difference with whatever the end result will be. For a while I thought it was just an instructional style video that we could offer suggestions to improve the next installment. But that's not the case here.

Josh Bass · January 15th, 2020, 10:33 AM

He's directly said he's on the spectrum before so proceed gently.

As for the stuff about crewing vs directing please see: every other thread.

Brian Drysdale · January 15th, 2020, 11:11 AM

There are some directors who are on the spectrum, however, how it affects their ability can't be applied to everyone. Some have been successful because of it giving them a unique world view, but I suspect most will not have that vision which connects with an audience and so will work in other roles in the crew.

Pete Cofrancesco · January 15th, 2020, 11:20 AM

In other threads there are many who suggest it’s a lack of real world experience and he needs to pay his dues work his way up on a professional set to become a director. Treading lightly as I can, if this isn’t a lack of experience thing then that advice is misleading. I’m trying to be helpful as I can to dissuade someone from a bad decision. Much like if I had a friend who was terrible at poker wanted take his life savings to the casino. While you can’t stop someone from trying to do something that they’re not good at, it’s concerning (if it’s true) borrowing a large sum of money to pursue something in my mind is folly.

Ryan Elder · January 15th, 2020, 11:41 AM

Oh okay thanks. Nothing is wrong with the how the treading has been done on here or the advice. Thanks.

I think perhaps maybe I don't know how to proceed cause I don't have a script. I think with certain scripts I would do a much better job in directing, or at least I feel I would. Perhaps a promotional video, is just not my thing as director, which is why I prefer to do fictional narratives, as I feel I would do a lot better there.

As for the directing a feature film, I was told by other filmmakers I worked with that they think I could do it as long as I had a much better DP and much better actors then before, since they said those were the things that were lacking before, and they feel I would do much better with those people to help carry it through, if that's true.

As for me possibly having a unique view, I suppose that's possible, cause I come up with certain ideas and then people think they are strange or at least very unique. But one filmmaker I know said that that's good, cause otherwise I would just be following the trends more and doing what everyone else is doing, if that's true.

Josh Bass · January 15th, 2020, 12:13 PM

If you are to continue with your martial arts client I think you should postpone future shoots untill/unless you work out a treatment/outline/script for this thing. No matter how many meetings or emails it takes. Get a solid plan down that outlines what happens during every single moment of this video.

What youre doing is not really that different than the many corporate projects I work on...training videos, videos about new buildings, etc. Those all have scripts in two column format, almost a paper version of what the final product will look once edited. Paragraph by paragraph, sometimes sentence by sentence, you know exactly what shots will go with what audio (sometimes it just says “b-roll of _____”) and generally whats happening at every moment. You time out yourself or them reading each line so you know you have 2.7 seconds you need to cover for this sentence, etc.

I think you need something like that for this project, so everyone’s on the same page. If they wont agree to that, cause “its not in the spirit of Krav Maga” or whatever, I’d say walk away. Sometimes you have to train your clients on how to be good clients. They should be willing to put in the work.

Ryan Elder · January 15th, 2020, 12:44 PM

Okay thanks well we have a more specific outline of scenes now and the order they are in. Three of them scenes are training moves, and the fourth is a sit down interview type scene where he talks about his place, and what he has to offer, but this scene will book end the other three. At least that is what we have so far.

January 14th, 2020, 06:23 PM	#496
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Well I tried being more aggressive but it wasn't working. I asked him if we can do takes from this many angles, and he said it was too many takes for him to keep track of, for example. He also gave me ideas of what he wants to do next for the video, but should I just reject them and say no? I guess I am more comfortable being the one making all the decisions, if it's a project where I am the one spending the money and producing. Plus I don't think he sees me as the director but more of a camera operator. But even if he is going to promote himself, doesn't he still have to explain some moves, in order to sell himself on what he is talking about?

January 15th, 2020, 02:12 AM	#497
Greg Smith Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Champaign, IL Posts: 86	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? How does the client expect to distribute and promote this video? Is it intended as a piece for YouTube, a local broadcast commercial, late night public access channel, playing in a booth at a trade show, something prospective clients are handed on a DVD when visiting the studio, what? Will the potential viewers see this video BEFORE or AFTER they have first met the instructors in person? If it's intended to be BEFORE, how will they find this particular production among, say, the thousands of martial arts videos on YouTube? What makes it stand out? Is it part of a broader marketing effort that includes other media, public demonstrations, etc.? These questions make a big difference in deciding what the emphasis in the piece should be, how long it should be, and how it should be packaged with "extras" like graphics, music and B-roll footage. I realize that what we saw originally is not a finished, edited package. But the whole product kind of feels as though one of the guys said, "Hey, dude, we should make a video," and the other said, "Sure, sounds like fun," without thinking much at all about how, where and why it would be used.

January 15th, 2020, 02:29 AM	#498
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Youtube and facebook page for them, as well as their own website. Yeah I get that same feeling from them so far. I'm not sure how they planned to get noticed more.

January 15th, 2020, 02:30 AM	#499
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? This is where you have to give the video some structure on paper and agree to it before you start filming. If you don't they will just start changing things as they go along. These are shots, not takes if it's from different angles, if he can't remember more than a minute or so, break the video down, so that he doesn't need to remember 5 minutes. You are the one who needs to now where everything goes, not him. I assume this video lasts about 5 minutes at the most. If it's a promo being shorter would be better, viewers sense within the first 30 seconds or a minute at the most if the guy is a good teacher and knows his stuff, the rest just confirms the first impression, Is this a series of instructional videos? it sounds rather like that's what he wants.

January 15th, 2020, 02:46 AM	#500
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Okay thanks, he said he would rather do a lot of it in one take though, rather than break it down into sections. Unless that's not good? It feels like a promo video to me. He describes some of his moves, and then talks about the promo stuff of what he has to offfer in his teachings. At least that is how it reads on paper, with what he wants.

January 15th, 2020, 02:58 AM	#501
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? "He said...." This is where you move into options. "OK - must admit this worries me, but let's try it on one take, and see if it's possible. If it goes wrong, then we'll need to break it into sections, or you're going to get tired, and make more mistakes, and we don't want to do that". You have given them what they want, but they already have a plan B, which of course you need. I'm concerned that when given the suggestion about being too passive, you made a jump to the word aggressive! This is BAD. In fact, being aggressive is the worst possible working arrangement with a client. You are thinking about the passive/aggressive personality disorder. This is NOT what we are talking about. Our use of the word passive is where clients ask for things you know will fail, and you offer no resistance and go with it. Stage two is taking this depressed and possibly stressed client and providing support and guidance to make the product and process work. NOT aggression. The trick is usually letting the client think they got their way, when you got yours. This is a train wreck of a project unless you get control and make it work. I'd start with a very simple set of questions. Who are the audience? What do they want the video to do? How is it best presented? They MUST give you solid answers to these simple questions. If they cannot answer them with immediate, solid and considered responses, then you will never get to the end because they have movable goalposts. Nothing you can do will make them happy. Walk away telling them you don't think you are the best person to do this job, but tell them that if they can decide the direction they want to go, you'd be happy to reconsider once they' decided.

January 15th, 2020, 07:14 AM	#502
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? This is so ridiculous, we’re wasted so much much time giving Ryan all this advice only to find out he’s not even remotely in charge of this project. I was fooled into thinking someone who is planning to direct a feature film would at least be able to take the clients ideas and come up with a plan how to film it. A guy who went to film school is letting a would be karate instructor have full control of whatever this is. I shouldn’t get mad at him because I think even though he talks a good game here, in person he doesn’t have ability lead or direct. I’m left with a feeling he suffers from some form of autism. I keep on expecting with more experience he’s going to gain the confidence to take charge but I’m now of the opinion that unfortunately this is good as it gets. I’m not blaming him it’s just pointless for us to give him advice.

January 15th, 2020, 09:41 AM	#503
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? I think this is why, unlike so many other posters who appear and vanish, we've stuck with Ryan, hoping that we can guide him.I have a lad who works for me who has Asberger's and he is rather driven like Ryan, and he's always dependable and useful, and I've been gently exploring his limits and while by no means an expert on these things I've done pretty well getting him integrated with the others. Hence why I personally, keep trying with Ryan - but we do seem to go two steps forward, then back three sometimes. From our side, it's infuriating to see many of our suggestions really badly misunderstood, and creating tangents to shoot off into. Ryan'e been plugging away but this one is a very good example of him being asked to do something and being way off the mark because he doesn't understand the clients, and worse, they seem unable to understand anything about making videos. It really makes no sense flogging this dead horse. The two people we see in the video clearly are clueless about their real need for the video and how to make it good. We just struggle on. The advice we are giving here is simply give up and move on, and Ryan does not do this - but this time, he should. It's a poor subject, presented by poor talent, shot by poor old Ryan who lost control from shot 1.

January 15th, 2020, 10:33 AM	#505
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? He's directly said he's on the spectrum before so proceed gently. As for the stuff about crewing vs directing please see: every other thread. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

January 15th, 2020, 11:11 AM	#506
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? There are some directors who are on the spectrum, however, how it affects their ability can't be applied to everyone. Some have been successful because of it giving them a unique world view, but I suspect most will not have that vision which connects with an audience and so will work in other roles in the crew.

January 15th, 2020, 11:20 AM	#507
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? In other threads there are many who suggest it’s a lack of real world experience and he needs to pay his dues work his way up on a professional set to become a director. Treading lightly as I can, if this isn’t a lack of experience thing then that advice is misleading. I’m trying to be helpful as I can to dissuade someone from a bad decision. Much like if I had a friend who was terrible at poker wanted take his life savings to the casino. While you can’t stop someone from trying to do something that they’re not good at, it’s concerning (if it’s true) borrowing a large sum of money to pursue something in my mind is folly.

January 15th, 2020, 11:41 AM	#508
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh okay thanks. Nothing is wrong with the how the treading has been done on here or the advice. Thanks. I think perhaps maybe I don't know how to proceed cause I don't have a script. I think with certain scripts I would do a much better job in directing, or at least I feel I would. Perhaps a promotional video, is just not my thing as director, which is why I prefer to do fictional narratives, as I feel I would do a lot better there. As for the directing a feature film, I was told by other filmmakers I worked with that they think I could do it as long as I had a much better DP and much better actors then before, since they said those were the things that were lacking before, and they feel I would do much better with those people to help carry it through, if that's true. As for me possibly having a unique view, I suppose that's possible, cause I come up with certain ideas and then people think they are strange or at least very unique. But one filmmaker I know said that that's good, cause otherwise I would just be following the trends more and doing what everyone else is doing, if that's true.

January 15th, 2020, 12:13 PM	#509
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? If you are to continue with your martial arts client I think you should postpone future shoots untill/unless you work out a treatment/outline/script for this thing. No matter how many meetings or emails it takes. Get a solid plan down that outlines what happens during every single moment of this video. What youre doing is not really that different than the many corporate projects I work on...training videos, videos about new buildings, etc. Those all have scripts in two column format, almost a paper version of what the final product will look once edited. Paragraph by paragraph, sometimes sentence by sentence, you know exactly what shots will go with what audio (sometimes it just says “b-roll of _____”) and generally whats happening at every moment. You time out yourself or them reading each line so you know you have 2.7 seconds you need to cover for this sentence, etc. I think you need something like that for this project, so everyone’s on the same page. If they wont agree to that, cause “its not in the spirit of Krav Maga” or whatever, I’d say walk away. Sometimes you have to train your clients on how to be good clients. They should be willing to put in the work. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

January 15th, 2020, 12:44 PM	#510
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Okay thanks well we have a more specific outline of scenes now and the order they are in. Three of them scenes are training moves, and the fourth is a sit down interview type scene where he talks about his place, and what he has to offer, but this scene will book end the other three. At least that is what we have so far.