Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?

[Josh Bass]

gotcha.

Maybe have to find some place with a generous return policy and buy knowing you can return if unsatisfied.

For what its worth one of my clients has (and presumably likes) the ronin s.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, well I already tried the Ronin before, but thought I'd try the Moza Air 2 if it looks like that's the best one from some reviews.

But is the Ronin more professional then in performance?

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

again why not lensrentals or similar? They probably ship anywhere and they have to be competitively priced or no one would use them.

Moza 2 costs $489, you can get it for around $300 on ebay but if you don't go through a local retailer and you have a problem... LensRental offers the DJI Ronin S for 7 days for $60 with shipping and tax be around $130. I've used the Ronin S it's on the heavy side but is high quality, smooth motion, and powerful motors. I'd buy the gimbal if you plan to use it more than 3 times. I generally prefer to own, like someone said better to know your equipment and use it whenever you want...

In my experience the downside of gimbals is they add a layer of difficulty. You're going to need to plan and practice the start and stop point. During that motion if there is any defect you need to redo do it. Whether that be the camera going out of focus, horizon off, vibration, vertical motion from walking, maintaining the framing... These things are heavy to hold for anything longer than a few minutes.

I can't see why you can't use a gimbal and still direct. Most of us here have done solo work. In some ways its easier, you simply shoot it the way you want. You don't need to communicate it to someone else.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay. When I used the Ronin before, I found that if I wanted to pan and tilt, that I had to use a cellphone app to do that but there was delays, when it came to communication between the Ronin and a phone. So I had problems with delays in timing the moves.

The Moza Air 2 has all it's controls on the device itself, or so I've been told, so I thought therefore, there would more likely be less delay in response time.

As for a camera going out of focus, a good focus puller, who uses a follow focus can help with that too though, right? Or when I watch some movies that have these sorts of camera moves, if they move from one actor to another, it seems they have a deep depth of field if need be as well, and are not pulling focus therefore.

[Brian Drysdale]

It may depend on which model you used, the Ronin S seems to use more sophisticated controls than a mobile phone. https://store.dji.com/product/ronin-s?vid=43801

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, I considered the Ronin S, before but I was told that the Moza Air 2 has a better follow focus system if that's true?

I was also told that the Ronin S, cannot perform roll moves while pointed up or down, just pointed forward, where as the Moza Air 2 can do roll moves pointed up and down. There was at least one shot that was a role where I wanted it pointed down so far, in the storyboards. Unless that's not true and the Ronin S can do all the same moves. I can rent it and try it out, I just wanted to compared it to others, to see what is best. But it seems that Lenrentals carries Ronin only, and I didn't like Ronin before, because of the cell phone delay issue, unless they have improved on that since a couple of years ago.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh okay, I considered the Ronin S, before but I was told that the Moza Air 2 has a better follow focus system if that's true?

I was also told that the Ronin S, cannot perform roll moves while pointed up or down, just pointed forward, where as the Moza Air 2 can do roll moves pointed up and down. There was at least one shot that was a role where I wanted it pointed down so far, in the storyboards. Unless that's not true and the Ronin S can do all the same moves. I can rent it and try it out, I just wanted to compared it to others, to see what is best. But it seems that Lenrentals carries Ronin only, and I didn't like Ronin before, because of the cell phone delay issue, unless they have improved on that since a couple of years ago.

I don't really know what you mean by roll moves. I think you're being a bit picky about features that are bordering on gimmicky. The Ronin S app is intended for setting changes, it might be able remotely move it but trying use it this way while the operator was using it would be a misuse of a feature. Honestly the Ronin and Air are both good, Tom Antos prefers the Air and I do think its a better value so by all means get the Air if you want. I will also say the cable connection only works for limited cameras and I have seen pull focus dial to be unusable. These things don't fix fly by wire lenses if they suck at follow focus they will also suck attached to a gimbal.

You should watch this video because even though the Air does a better job it shows how much the results are dependent on the operator. They do a walk around and you can see what happens. All the things I pointed out before about the difficulty of framing, vertical motion, focus... Often in other videos you are only seeing the final take that looked good or its being operated by someone very talented. For different shots electronic gimbals have to be tuned correctly. At the end they even talk about how they ran out of time just shooting a few shots. I can't stress enough like many others have said the skill of the operator is paramount. You can see it in this video the same shot can great or like crap depending on the operator.

Gimbal Wars! DJI Ronin-S vs Moza Air 2 - YouTube

[Josh Bass]

When you talk about panning on a gimbal do you mean the motorized pan? Would you ever actually use that in a shot? I cant imagine it looks smooth or organic (i.e. not drawing attention to itself in a bad way) compared to a human panning by hand; probably looks like moving a surveillance camera around. I would think its just for reframing when not recording, which it seems like you could do by simply moving your body if need be.

That said, I have basically zero experience with gimbals so maybe Im missing something?

[Ryan Elder]

Yes I meant the motorized pan. I thought that might look better compared to hands, in case the hand pan might not be as level, but I can use hands if better.

I saw that video before, but also watched a couple of other videos where they said that the Moza Air 2 they felt was better than the Ronin S. Two of the reasons being that it has better follow focus, and can do better roll moves. I can see if I can find those videos later when I am home.

It's called a roll, I was told by other filmmakers unless their terminology is incorrect. By roll moves, I mean this type of move which is 3:58 into the video:

DOES THIS GIMBAL BEAT THE RONIN S? | MOZA AIR 2 | review - YouTube

I don't think it's a gimmicky moved depending on how you use it. Since the project I want to do is a horror thriller, it can be used during chase and suspense scenes in certain parts. This is one of the reasons why I thought a gimbal was a good choice maybe, cause it can not only go back and forth and up and down, but roll as well.

[Brian Drysdale]

Regarding the control options, I would have a look at the video in the Ronin where joystick and gear head wheel controls are shown.

If you're doing dramas, you'll very rarely use rolls, so I wouldn't get too excited about that. Given how much you seem to like longer lenses, that's something I would check out in a test as being more important.

A roll doesn't give suspense.

This is getting like when the zoom lenses become common in the 1960s, people were zooming all over the place.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Lol Ryan and his rolls. Yeah they're a bit a fad that was made popular by the movie Inception. It's fine but Ryan makes something that wasn't used until very recently an essential that he can't live without.

Btw the video I posted they were using A6500 with 30mm lens which is equivalent to 48mm. No need for a telephoto.

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

When you talk about panning on a gimbal do you mean the motorized pan? Would you ever actually use that in a shot? I cant imagine it looks smooth or organic (i.e. not drawing attention to itself in a bad way) compared to a human panning by hand; probably looks like moving a surveillance camera around. I would think its just for reframing when not recording, which it seems like you could do by simply moving your body if need be.

That said, I have basically zero experience with gimbals so maybe Im missing something?

It's a little weird. Best way I can describe it, its like flying a plane. Imagine holding the gimbal handle vertical as you tilt the stick forward the camera points down, pull it back towards you the camera will point up, twisting turns it. While twisting would normally be considered a pan because you would use a gimbal to follow or move around a subject keeping them in the center of the frame it doesn't feel like a pan. Panning would be a misuse of a gimbal. There is a joystick but its more natural physically moving the gimbal in the direction you want the camera pointing. There are sensitivity settings to prevent inadvertent operator movements from being misinterpreted as camera movement commands. You have to fine tune the speed and responsiveness to type of shot you are doing.

[Josh Bass]

But does the joystick work like a video game controller? I.e further forward you push it the faster it tilts or does it just do one speed (that the user can alter) regardless? Either way seems like it would lack finesse but then again there are motors for pan and tilt on jibs so it must be feasible.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks. I've seen roles in other movies before Inception. Die Hard and Malcolm X comes to mind.

There are some shots I had in mind for rolls. For example, a person pushes another person onto a bed, and as the subject falls back onto the bed, I wanted the camera to roll back with him.

Another shot is a chase down a staircase, with the camera pointed down. at the staircase from above. I wanted the camera to roll along with the stair case chase as the actors go around the stairs, if that makes sense. So I had rolls in mind here and there for shots like that. So I figured if I'm getting a gimbal for other shots, then the roll shots would be a bonus.

[Brian Drysdale]

If you're going to do a roll with the camera pointing down a staircase, you'd probably have to put the gimbal on the end of a pole.

However, I'd be wary of visual masturbation with shots, because I sense you may be lacking in dramatic judgment in the use of camera moves. Just because you can do something, unless everything around adds together, it may just become distracting in the context of a drama. The use of a camera movement in another film doesn't mean that it's the best for your film.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, well I thought of these moves on my own, I only referenced other films as examples. But I am doing the moves on my own thought, not because I saw them in other movies. In fact they were done differently on different types of shots for Die Hard and Malcolm X, I was just trying to think of examples :).

I feel that the roll during a chase down a staircase will add to the suspense of the chase, or so I thought.

I thought I would screw the gimbal onto a tripod and then tilt the tripod downward, but a pole might work too.

The martial arts training first shoot went okay I think. I couldn't get the martial arts to repeat the fight exactly of course from angle to angle, so I think I will have to use a master shot if the whole fight for almost all of it. They also wanted to explain the moves as they did them and record live while doing them. But the audio room reverb for the location is terrible, cause loud furnace turned on about halfway through and no way to shut it off. But maybe I can make it consistent with room tone recordings if I have to use it. The one martial artist is pretty good though, and think I can work with him on future project hopefully.