Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?

Ryan Elder · December 27th, 2019, 03:45 AM

Okay you say that the storyboards have nothing to do with blocking and that the blocking is planned out before shooting. But why isn't the blocking part of the storyboards? Would the blocking being on the storyboards, help the director and the DP be on the same page for the shots, rather than deciding apart from the storyboards?

As for actors not understanding drawings, well wouldn't it still be for the DP to understand the blocking since DPs go by storyboards?

For example, if the storyboard shots an actor and describes he is suppose to walk from the table to the window, and the camera moves with him, then why would you want to change that just before shooting? Why not stick to the storyboard blocking?

Even if we have to make changes later on the location, we still need some sort of frame of reference for all the shots that do not have be changed and can remain the same, can't we?

Plus blocking also determines the number of shots I will need in some ways. So if I decide the blocking right before shooting, then how I am suppose to know how many shots, to cover such blocking? I need to know the number of shots in advance, so I do not go overboard, and over time. So how I am suppose to know the number of shots going in, if I do not know the blocking for those shots ahead of time, since changing the blocking, can change the number of shots?

Brian Drysdale · December 27th, 2019, 04:05 AM

The blocking is where the actors go and where they say the lines. The storyboard shows the shots, for many dialogue heavy scenes, with little visual content a storyboard is probably overkill. A floor plan with the actors (with big noses to show how they're facing) positions marked out and the camera positions and shot sizes beside them will do the job. combined with the shot lines in the script.

You can quickly spot if you gone over the line because you're in plan view and you don't waste time drawing out basic dialogue scenes.

This is how they did it in the TV drama in the multi camera studios and they had some complex camera coverage.

Paul R Johnson · December 27th, 2019, 05:29 AM

You're trying to do the rule thing again Ryan.

If you are micro-directing the actors, no wonder their performance suffers? If you have two actors and they mover from camera right to new positions to the left, you decide as the director when they walk, and at what point in the travel or the end, they perhaps say things. You also determine who crosses whom. Does the female stay closest to the camera, or do they swap at some point. If these things don't matter - you just need them to perhaps cross to look at something - then you set their end move and they get there on their own. In complex sequences, like the Kubrik clip where people are being shot while the camera tracks, you just need to sort out their sequence of being shot. If the odd one messes up, it doesn't matter.

If the actors got the blocking wrong, but did a perfect take that worked brilliantly, I get the impression you'd shoot two more because the blocking was wrong and the storyboards and paperwork called for more takes?

This just makes us positive you just don't understand directing. Your preoccupation with process and paperwork is really messing you up. Does your co-director do all this planning, or just look at the set, the location, the cast and the rest and just instinctively know how to shoot it? If so - just follow their lead if you can. Most people cannot read plans, cannot understand drawings in 2D or 3D and make sense of storyboards. Many actors cannot multitask. Hitting a mark is hard enough. Getting them to hit the mark on a specific work in the script may just be impossible. In the real world it's so hard to micro-manage ordinary people - they just hate it. I remember working on location where a house had been built in a dry dock, which at a certain point would be flooded. A one-shot, one-time take. The director got the cast together they did a run through a few times, shouting words for visual events like windows blowing in, doors opening etc and then the Director distanced himself to the dry, leaving the actors and the cameraman in wetsuits in the ankle deep water. Shot on film too - so no way to review what had been shot. He had to trust everyone to do what had been rehearsed and they did a great job. The storyboards were just guides as to what was going to happen. Everyone concerned did their job. When they emerged from the flooded house, the director called cut. Everyone thumbed up and the cast and crew broke. Just how it had to be. 3 minutes in the final production - 24 hours to set up. One shot and it worked.

Ryan Elder · December 27th, 2019, 10:56 AM

Oh okay thanks. Before when I first started doing projects, I didn't have the blocking all planned out in the shots, and we just came up with it before shooting. But I was told by others that the blocking was off and I didn't like the results, and it seemed that the camera movement, was not prepared enough for it also.

So I thought it was better to plan the blocking in advance therefore. David Cronenberg, I remember said an interview that too many directors are too specific with blocking, and to just let the actors do it as they go, as it gives a more natural performance.

But if you do not have the actors hit specific marks though, how is the focus puller suppose to pull focus properly, or how is the gimbal or steadicam operator, suppose to know where the camera is going to move, since they told me they need to know in advance where the camera is going to move, if that's true?

Paul R Johnson · December 27th, 2019, 11:10 AM

That's what the first run though is for - to get the components to gel. The camera op needs to know where they are going, but usually only when they see the action. It's often a choreography that's needed and you can't do that until you are there, seeing what will work and what won't.

I'm all in favour of planning - but after a certain depth, it starts to become pointless. You strive to meet the preset positions, actions or effects and you start to concentrate on that rather than the 'whole'. You need that happy point where it just works.

Ryan Elder · December 27th, 2019, 11:37 AM

Okay thanks. What about style consistency though? Different movies have different types of blocking styles, and if I keep deciding on the set, without a prior plan, what if the style is not consistent from scene to scene though as a result?

Paul R Johnson · December 27th, 2019, 12:06 PM

Eh? I doubt many directors would change their style during the production process? Your style is well, your style. If you try to emulate other scenes from movies you like you could mess up, so you don't do that - you do your version.

You're still doing painting by numbers Ryan. Trust your inner feelings, and go with the force!

Ryan Elder · December 27th, 2019, 11:40 PM

Okay sure, it's just when I do my own shots, I was told before that's not how things are done, such as cutting to a shot that is too similar to the previous shot, or breaking the 180 rule for example. So I am reluctant to just do any shots I want based on my own originality therefore, as people may not accept a new form of filmmaking.

Pete Cofrancesco · December 28th, 2019, 01:21 AM

In most skilled professions when you master your craft you simply know what to do. It’s just comes naturally. Just like a doctor wouldn’t pull out a medical text book in the middle of surgery.

Ryan Elder · December 28th, 2019, 01:48 AM

Oh yeah for sure, I know a doctor wouldn't pull out a text book in the middle, but I thought he would follow the trends of the surgery and come in with a prior plan, rather than re-inventing the wheel with his own surgery procedure.

Brian Drysdale · December 28th, 2019, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

] But if you do not have the actors hit specific marks though, how is the focus puller suppose to pull focus properly, or how is the gimbal or steadicam operator, suppose to know where the camera is going to move, since they told me they need to know in advance where the camera is going to move, if that's true?

Good focus pullers and camera operators can go with the flow of the performance. It's not that unusual for actors to miss their marks, however, I don't thing Cronenberg means that the scene blocking changes with every take, more that the actors are able to discover their own blocking, rather than the director imposing the blocking.

Once the actors have found their blocking, the camera people can do their stuff.

Ryan Elder · December 28th, 2019, 02:22 AM

Okay as long as the actors blocking doesn't bring down their performance though. I don't want an actor to just lean against a wall as a background and not move at all for example. I want the blocking to be good. So as long as they can do good blocking...

But by having a consistent style in the blocking I am talking about how in other movies, the blocking all seems like it's the same style. 12 Angry Men has lots of blocking but there is something about it that feels all of the same style and decided in advance, rather than having the actors decide on each of their own styles of blocking, if that makes sense?

Brian Drysdale · December 28th, 2019, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

] But if you do not have the actors hit specific marks though, how is the focus puller suppose to pull focus properly, or how is the gimbal or steadicam operator, suppose to know where the camera is going to move, since they told me they need to know in advance where the camera is going to move, if that's true?

Good focus pullers and camera operators can go with the flow of the performance. It's not that unusual for actors to miss their marks, however, I don't thing Cronenberg means that the scene blocking changes with every take, more that the actors are able to discover their own blocking, rather than the director imposing the blocking.

Once the actors have found their blocking, the camera people can do their stuff.

General practice doctors these days do sometime check on line to confirm details during a consultation. During a complex operation, surgeons can plan in advance more than they used to, but they're still going to come across the unexpected and have to work around the issues that suddenly arise, There's a team of people working together, so they can confer with the other specialists during the operation (assuming egos don't get in the way). Some operations are cutting edge, so the surgeon needs to come up with their plan in each case.

With a film. the director should have a vision about how they're going to tell the story. Some directors have a strong personal style, elements of which gets carried over into each of their films. However, one Hollywood director has said that you don't really know what's best for the film until about two weeks into the shoot, unfortunately, they added you can't go back and redo the first two weeks filming.

Unless you're doing a TV drama series (although they can evolve over time), each feature film is a one off, even within franchises they differ to some degree.

Paul R Johnson · December 28th, 2019, 02:53 AM

Ryan - you certain you actually understand blocking? It's got nothing to do with standing or leaning on a wall, or if they have their arms crossed or not. That's acting and needs direction. Blocking is simply where and when at its crudest. If you try to micro manage this then their acting suffers. Who is behind who - angles, heights, gaps, direction they face.

Quote:

So as long as they can do good blocking...

Actors do NOT do blocking, the director does this. Once they know the blocking, they start to act. You MUST get a handle on this, or the actors will do their thing despite your input.

Brian Drysdale · December 28th, 2019, 03:55 AM

Here's David Cronenberg on working with actors, which is is similar to the way a number of directors work, although this doesn't mean that the blocking changes with every take.

How well this works will depend on the quality of your actors and if they've been out partying every night of the shoot.

December 27th, 2019, 03:45 AM	#16
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Okay you say that the storyboards have nothing to do with blocking and that the blocking is planned out before shooting. But why isn't the blocking part of the storyboards? Would the blocking being on the storyboards, help the director and the DP be on the same page for the shots, rather than deciding apart from the storyboards? As for actors not understanding drawings, well wouldn't it still be for the DP to understand the blocking since DPs go by storyboards? For example, if the storyboard shots an actor and describes he is suppose to walk from the table to the window, and the camera moves with him, then why would you want to change that just before shooting? Why not stick to the storyboard blocking? Even if we have to make changes later on the location, we still need some sort of frame of reference for all the shots that do not have be changed and can remain the same, can't we? Plus blocking also determines the number of shots I will need in some ways. So if I decide the blocking right before shooting, then how I am suppose to know how many shots, to cover such blocking? I need to know the number of shots in advance, so I do not go overboard, and over time. So how I am suppose to know the number of shots going in, if I do not know the blocking for those shots ahead of time, since changing the blocking, can change the number of shots?

December 27th, 2019, 04:05 AM	#17
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? The blocking is where the actors go and where they say the lines. The storyboard shows the shots, for many dialogue heavy scenes, with little visual content a storyboard is probably overkill. A floor plan with the actors (with big noses to show how they're facing) positions marked out and the camera positions and shot sizes beside them will do the job. combined with the shot lines in the script. You can quickly spot if you gone over the line because you're in plan view and you don't waste time drawing out basic dialogue scenes. This is how they did it in the TV drama in the multi camera studios and they had some complex camera coverage.

December 27th, 2019, 05:29 AM	#18
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? You're trying to do the rule thing again Ryan. If you are micro-directing the actors, no wonder their performance suffers? If you have two actors and they mover from camera right to new positions to the left, you decide as the director when they walk, and at what point in the travel or the end, they perhaps say things. You also determine who crosses whom. Does the female stay closest to the camera, or do they swap at some point. If these things don't matter - you just need them to perhaps cross to look at something - then you set their end move and they get there on their own. In complex sequences, like the Kubrik clip where people are being shot while the camera tracks, you just need to sort out their sequence of being shot. If the odd one messes up, it doesn't matter. If the actors got the blocking wrong, but did a perfect take that worked brilliantly, I get the impression you'd shoot two more because the blocking was wrong and the storyboards and paperwork called for more takes? This just makes us positive you just don't understand directing. Your preoccupation with process and paperwork is really messing you up. Does your co-director do all this planning, or just look at the set, the location, the cast and the rest and just instinctively know how to shoot it? If so - just follow their lead if you can. Most people cannot read plans, cannot understand drawings in 2D or 3D and make sense of storyboards. Many actors cannot multitask. Hitting a mark is hard enough. Getting them to hit the mark on a specific work in the script may just be impossible. In the real world it's so hard to micro-manage ordinary people - they just hate it. I remember working on location where a house had been built in a dry dock, which at a certain point would be flooded. A one-shot, one-time take. The director got the cast together they did a run through a few times, shouting words for visual events like windows blowing in, doors opening etc and then the Director distanced himself to the dry, leaving the actors and the cameraman in wetsuits in the ankle deep water. Shot on film too - so no way to review what had been shot. He had to trust everyone to do what had been rehearsed and they did a great job. The storyboards were just guides as to what was going to happen. Everyone concerned did their job. When they emerged from the flooded house, the director called cut. Everyone thumbed up and the cast and crew broke. Just how it had to be. 3 minutes in the final production - 24 hours to set up. One shot and it worked.

December 27th, 2019, 10:56 AM	#19
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh okay thanks. Before when I first started doing projects, I didn't have the blocking all planned out in the shots, and we just came up with it before shooting. But I was told by others that the blocking was off and I didn't like the results, and it seemed that the camera movement, was not prepared enough for it also. So I thought it was better to plan the blocking in advance therefore. David Cronenberg, I remember said an interview that too many directors are too specific with blocking, and to just let the actors do it as they go, as it gives a more natural performance. But if you do not have the actors hit specific marks though, how is the focus puller suppose to pull focus properly, or how is the gimbal or steadicam operator, suppose to know where the camera is going to move, since they told me they need to know in advance where the camera is going to move, if that's true?

December 27th, 2019, 11:10 AM	#20
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? That's what the first run though is for - to get the components to gel. The camera op needs to know where they are going, but usually only when they see the action. It's often a choreography that's needed and you can't do that until you are there, seeing what will work and what won't. I'm all in favour of planning - but after a certain depth, it starts to become pointless. You strive to meet the preset positions, actions or effects and you start to concentrate on that rather than the 'whole'. You need that happy point where it just works.

December 27th, 2019, 11:37 AM	#21
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Okay thanks. What about style consistency though? Different movies have different types of blocking styles, and if I keep deciding on the set, without a prior plan, what if the style is not consistent from scene to scene though as a result?

December 27th, 2019, 12:06 PM	#22
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Eh? I doubt many directors would change their style during the production process? Your style is well, your style. If you try to emulate other scenes from movies you like you could mess up, so you don't do that - you do your version. You're still doing painting by numbers Ryan. Trust your inner feelings, and go with the force!

December 27th, 2019, 11:40 PM	#23
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Okay sure, it's just when I do my own shots, I was told before that's not how things are done, such as cutting to a shot that is too similar to the previous shot, or breaking the 180 rule for example. So I am reluctant to just do any shots I want based on my own originality therefore, as people may not accept a new form of filmmaking.

December 28th, 2019, 01:21 AM	#24
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? In most skilled professions when you master your craft you simply know what to do. It’s just comes naturally. Just like a doctor wouldn’t pull out a medical text book in the middle of surgery.

December 28th, 2019, 01:48 AM	#25
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh yeah for sure, I know a doctor wouldn't pull out a text book in the middle, but I thought he would follow the trends of the surgery and come in with a prior plan, rather than re-inventing the wheel with his own surgery procedure.

December 28th, 2019, 02:22 AM	#27
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Okay as long as the actors blocking doesn't bring down their performance though. I don't want an actor to just lean against a wall as a background and not move at all for example. I want the blocking to be good. So as long as they can do good blocking... But by having a consistent style in the blocking I am talking about how in other movies, the blocking all seems like it's the same style. 12 Angry Men has lots of blocking but there is something about it that feels all of the same style and decided in advance, rather than having the actors decide on each of their own styles of blocking, if that makes sense?

December 28th, 2019, 03:55 AM	#30
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Here's David Cronenberg on working with actors, which is is similar to the way a number of directors work, although this doesn't mean that the blocking changes with every take. Director David Cronenberg on Working with Actors - YouTube How well this works will depend on the quality of your actors and if they've been out partying every night of the shoot.