Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?

[Brian Drysdale]

It depends on the distance you need the camera to move, sliders have a limited length, so if you wish to go further you're into using a dolly om rails or tracking boards. If you only need to move the camera a short distance, no one is going to care what method you use, they'll be watching the content of your film. So, they will only notice your camera move if it's poorly executed or inappropriate for the scene.

You seem to be obsessed by what other people say. Even the best films ever made have people who don''t like them.

[Ryan Elder]

Well I just want to do the best job I can:

When it comes to gimbals it seems to me from what I have been told so far that gimbals are only good for when it comes to motivated camera movement, such as tracking along with an actor as they walk, run, etc.

But gimbals are not good for unmotivated camera movement, cause they are not smooth and precise enough for that, and for unmotivated camera movement, a slider or dolly, is the correct choice. Does this sound about right, or can you use a gimbal for unmotivated moevement.

[Brian Drysdale]

Like other tools, it will depend on how skilled the operator is. Skilled Steadicam operators can do camera moves that you'd have difficulty telling if it was done with a camera dolly, however, the Steadicam has a means (with the arm) of damping the height variations as the operator moves.

As always, it a matter of staying within the limits of what a piece of equipment and its operator can do. Usually with Gimbals and Steadicams it's safer to keep the focal lengths to less than 50mm on Super 35, 35mm or less, commonly tending towards the shorter length range. The better the equipment and operator, the more things can be pushed, However, in your case,, I'd keep to the shorter focal length, because the vibrations etc on the gimbal are more noticeable than any barrel distortion.

Using a dolly/slider will allow the camera moves that can coney a sub text, rather than just following a character as they move.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks. Well there are some shots where I want to push in for a more semi-extreme or even extreme close up on the face. A long lens is better for that cause of no barrel distortion.

However, if I cannot do those subtextual shots on a gimbal, then perhaps it's best to budget for a gimbal, plus a slider, or dolly?

What if for the martial arts video, I want to do a shot like this the one you see here, at 0:48 into the clip, where the camera moves past the men standing:

Inglourious Basterds - Trailer - YouTube

Would a gimbal work for that, or should I use a slider or dolly?

Also for another project I am planning the shots for, what if I want to a shot that goes over an an actors head like this shot here at 1:24 into the clip:

Schindler's List 25th Anniversary - Official Trailer - In Theaters December 7 - YouTube

Can a gimbal do that shot, if we do not have a jib?

[Paul R Johnson]

You seem to be hung up on 'products' but have visuals in your head. That war movie continuous shot we talked about a long way back. Think about that one where the camera mounting swapped continually - with planning perfection try achievable. You seem very stuck on products. Why would you even consider a slider, even a big one has a very limited run, so if you need to follow somebody, it's out. If you need to lay down 20m of track for a dolly, it's also out because your budget and people won't be enough. Remember sitting somebody in a supermarket trolley - maybe that's in? how about a bicycle and a gimbal mount? how about a rope and pulley stretched with camera hanging? I just made this up, but for some moves could be a perfectly stable system that would let the camera hang and slide gracefully pulled across by hand? Think about what you need to achieve, and make it happen. Scrap all these silly job titles if it's a budget production. Get a team together and solve the problems. A lightweight but long jib sitting on a soft wheeled skid made from 4 wheels and a bit of wood gives quite amazing stability to the camera on the end. It might mean lots of ADR but fly a drone along the path - all these things are alternatives to big money commercial products.

The clips.

I was expecting something special Ryan - I had to double check I was watching the right bit!! I could do that hand held with my camera, on wide, close in - it's nothing special and certainly not complicated. probably a couple of takes, because first one, I'd probably raise or lower accidentally - but for me that's a knees bent, twist torso slow walk? The other is another quite simple shot. If the floor was hard and not really soft carpet, I'd use a lightweight ped - I have one of these https://www.vinten.com/system/files/...Ped%20Plus.jpg
and you'd just go up, then in and tilt down. Or, if the table was too much in the way, I'd use a jib arm to clear the table, push in and again, just tilt down on a wide angle on the lens.

What are you seeing in these two clips? Far more interesting shots you ignored. I can't see why these two you even singled out as something either difficult or special.

[Brian Drysdale]

Please drop this obsession with the gimbal, it has limitations, especially the lower budget ones you are using.

Either a slider or a dolly for the first shot. the dolly would be easiest.

For the second a jib on a dolly, would get the closest, although a Steadicam could do something similar with a good operator, especially if standing on a dolly. I suspect the top of the case is a trick one and the case is nailed to the table.

[Josh Bass]

I dont think Ryan’s ever going to get the answers he wants. His questions are often way too specific to the point where he would have to test these ideas himself or at least be present while someone else does it. He wants to plan everything and account for every single possible variable and at a certain point you just cant...you simply have to see something in action and decide whether it works or not. You cant intellectualize your way to mastery, you actually have to do things, and go through experiences.

If it were me I would plan the movie, storyboard it, whatever, the way i see it in my head and when Im finally get ready to shoot, hire a dp, have locations chosen etc. THEN start asking about whats feasible in my budget for all these shots and find alternatives for things that dont work out. If there isnt time to have these very important discussions with the Dp, perhaps several meetings and much back and forth via email or whatever, then something is very wrong

The way Ryan’s going now he’s going to drive himself crazy trying to budget for something based on little experience, no knowledge of most gear and internet message board discussions.

[Ryan Elder]

Well as for a shopping cart, I tried that before but a shopping cart makes too much noise, if I want to record dialogue in the shot.

I can just do up the storyboards, and then see if it's possible, I just wanted to have a better idea beforehand, so I know what kinds of storyboards I can do up.

Let's say on the second shot I don't budget for a jib, and just dolly in and tilt down, but do not change height. Would not changing height on that shot, look weird?

[Josh Bass]

I would just storyboard it however you see it in your mind in an ideal world. “cam circles around guy in a CU”. There. Move on. Figure out HOW later. If it turns out it cant be done on your budget, figure out what exactly that shot is supposed to convey about the character or situation (the answer shouldnt simply be “it looks cool” or “I saw it in another film) and your dp should be able to suggest alternatives that you CAN do that get the same thing across.

[Brian Drysdale]

Hire a platform dolly and some length of straight metal track (with the leveling wedges etc) and you can do a wide range of the basic shots used in dramas. It's cheaper by the week, building railways will get everyone thinking they're working on a serious film. You can change the wheels on some models, so you can also track over smooth surfaces.

I've used the above on a number of short films and was part of the standard kit we used on the shoots.

Don't plan complex shots that will take a couple of hours to rig and shoot, you won't have the time. If you know you don't have the budget for something, don't waste time storyboarding it. There's always another way to say the same thing and there's nothing worse than copying something badly.

[Paul R Johnson]

Subtextual, non-motivated, motivated?

Now I'm beginning to understand why your film school experience didn't set you up to make movies - something we've all been scratching our heads to understand. It taught you to analyse and appreciate movies. The fog is clearing.

In the UK, when I was involved in education, we had a whole raft of subjects that gradually showed themselves to be very poor support for a career in the media arts industries. The common tag, was use of the word 'Studies'. We had theatre studies, media studies, film studies, photographic studies and music studies. The common element was an almost obsession with semiotics, and a total disregard for anything remotely practical. Students who moved on to specific degree studies found themselves able to talk it, analyse and navigate it, but be inept at actually doing it, and worse, at getting jobs doing it! We also found the two distinct groups of people unable to communicate even on basic concepts. Even vocabulary was blurred and easy to misinterpret. Worse, these 'studies' subjects seemed to have soft and fluffy content rarely able to produce absolute conclusions. Is this shot good or bad? The studies people would say 'it depends', or they fall back to an eminent Director who successfully used a simply awful technique to get a point across. The more technical versions of these subjects never had this fuzziness - nope, it was a dreadful shot because..... or nope it was a terrible recording because.... The 'studies' people seemed unable to produce conclusions of any kind, merely make comments about subtexts, or the motivation behind a shot. As a producer of material - I don't really find any interest in these things - they're the scriptwriters problem, or one of the arty departments babies. I see a challenge to solve in a physical, practical way - they want an emotional product and I can't do that very well at all.

Ryan - you seem to want to make movies using prior movies as components. I want this shot, like the Tarantino one in XYZ, then this tracking shot, like in Lucas's ABC, then we go to more and more Director's snippets. Where are your shots - the ones where YOU see a need for others to produce. I see storyboards as a series of individual problems to solve. I do NOT see a story.

We are all frankly, still trying to understand you. Every time I think I start to, you throw in another curve.

Originally we thought you were poor and making movies on a real budget - then you told us you have plenty of funds. we have no idea of the idea of spending a grand on hire kit is possible, or not. Brian's idea of the track above solves lots of your questions - but are we on the right lines budget wise?

My guess at the moment is that you have a normal job, and are spending your money on your hobby, in the hope it will blossom. I think you are a member of an amateur film making circle, and only have this circle to use to make your stuff. I'm guessing you cannot pay real day rates to industry pros who may be local to you because it's too much money. I suspect you don't drive, or own a car - mainly because a car would do many of your problem shots. Most of your work takes place in real locations or outside. A shopping trolley rattles outside on rough ground, but is pretty silent on a road, and is quiet on carpet - so the dismissal is based on noise, but that's controllable. I've seen sheets of plywood laid down to make a semi-smooth surface in my time. A biscuit cutter to key them together and gaffer tape can be perfectly usable with soft tyres and wide angles. If you have no budget improvise. If you have, hire.

[Ryan Elder]

Well it depends on the project how much I have to spend. I was saving up for a big project in the future where I would pay everyone. Right now, I am doing the much more volunteer ones with a group.

I don't mean to imply that I am borrowing shots from other movies. What I do is, I think of a shot myself, but in order to give an example of what I mean, I will think of a movie with a similar shot in, just as example. But it's not like I am thinking of those shots first and trying to copy them. Just thinking of them as comparisons when showing examples. Sorry if I have caused difficulty in trying to understand me. I don't mean to intend that.

When it comes to what I learned in film school, we learned a lot shooting a movie, with what I would call a 'soap opera' looking way, in which the shots, were a master, and then diagonal close ups of the actors, as if it was a multicam set up. But I don't like that soap opera shot style, and want to do my own.

[Brian Drysdale]

It sounds rather like your film school never went beyond the basics, having been involved in some student films, they were much more complex in execution than the films you're describing at your school.

The sum you mentioned for your feature film is around the budget for a short film, if you were paying people.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay. The film school course also concentrated a lot on the business side of it as well, more than the filmmaking side.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Really exhausting following your conversations. I can't even remember what the actual question was.

Whenever you have an issue with a piece of gear all I have to do is imagine how to misuse it. Like your concerns with wide angle lenses causing barrel distortion. So I take Ryan's fixation with close ups and then combine that with a wide angle lens and the wallah I get barrel distortion using a wide angle lens to film a close up of a person's face!

Then there is this larger issue of you planning out movies by copy pasting from movies for which you won't have the budget or expertise to pull off. Storyboards are for stories not for piecing together cinema techniques from scenes of movies you have watched.

You talk about not liking how in school they would use closeups for dialog but then you post a trailer from Iglourious Bastards where that's exactly what they do. It's actually a pretty accepted convention cu for dialog.

The business of film making is extremely difficult. It's hard to raise funds to make movie because they are such poor investments. The way you are trying to make films or become a director sounds like a torturous journey with a low chance of success. Your questions stem from a lack of experience. I'm not sure what good can come from watching movies and then trying to deduce how they did it and then try to do it another way because you don't have the budget.