Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?

[Brian Drysdale]

Just because it's on a gimbal doesn't make a shot original. Chances are all your shots have been done before, what's important that it's being used in a way to serve the story, without distracting from the story. What experienced gimbal operators say is that it allows you to be freeform with your shots, but it can't do everything, it has limitations, which is something you need to be aware of.

What a dolly gives is precision. As mentioned earlier, you need a crew that knows what they're doing and the correct track (straight or circular) etc. Flexible track has limitations, metal rails allow you to level correctly using a spirit level to set up wooden wedges, apple boxes, elephant blocks (these seems to have different names around the world) to build up the track to the correct level. Lightweight dollys have limitations, so if you're getting vibrations etc, you may have exceeded what the one you're using can do.

https://products.msegrip.com/collect...-wood-products

[Paul R Johnson]

There are always two versions of decisions at the least.

If you have lots of clever grip kit, you know the kinds of moves you can do well, and which ones are not good. You then select the best one available when you think up the shots - OR - you go the big budget movie way and you dream up the sequence, then you find a way to do it, and perhaps even find a brand new way to do it. Like those movies where they want impossible movements so do things like leave the camera static and move the entire set!

Let's be very honest. A gimbal in the hands of an inept cameraman will never produce steady and smooth shots. A good cameraman might not even need the gimbal - if they have the fluid skills some people just develop naturally. The most common is a good cameraman with a good gimbal and between them they can do many things a steadicam can do. Have you tried a cheap steadicam or equivalent device to see if they work for you? Gimbal mounts solve one problem, but cannot solve sharp changes in movement - sudden ups or downs in particular. They give a look and often the look is inappropriate.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay thanks. Well most of the shots I want to do with camera movement, which would be about maybe 30 percent of the shots, I try to think of moves I can do on a low budget. Most of them I think would require a gimbal theoretically. Others maybe a dolly or a slider.

So I try to think of moves that can theoretically be done on the budget I have, as oppose to really big moves like a crane, etc.

I thought that going around a person in a circular motion can be done. And since I want to do some walking sequences, and running, with the camera tracking along with, I thought that could be done as well... Things like that, where the movement can work within the budget limitations theoretically. I thought since I want a gimbal for a good portion of the shots so far, like the walking and running ones, then I can come up with any other shots that would involve a gimbal. Dolly or slider, for some, I am not sure yet. But no crane or drone shots for sure.

With the moves I come with though, is there a way of knowing, if you need a dolly, gimbal, or slider for it? Is there a way of calculating that somehow? Some are obvious of course, but is there a way to tell with the not obvious ones when budgeting?

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

There are always two versions of decisions at the least.

If you have lots of clever grip kit, you know the kinds of moves you can do well, and which ones are not good. You then select the best one available when you think up the shots - OR - you go the big budget movie way and you dream up the sequence, then you find a way to do it, and perhaps even find a brand new way to do it. Like those movies where they want impossible movements so do things like leave the camera static and move the entire set!

Let's be very honest. A gimbal in the hands of an inept cameraman will never produce steady and smooth shots. A good cameraman might not even need the gimbal - if they have the fluid skills some people just develop naturally. The most common is a good cameraman with a good gimbal and between them they can do many things a steadicam can do. Have you tried a cheap steadicam or equivalent device to see if they work for you? Gimbal mounts solve one problem, but cannot solve sharp changes in movement - sudden ups or downs in particular. They give a look and often the look is inappropriate.

When you say a cheap steadicam, do you mean a glidecam, or what do you mean?

[Josh Bass]

I think the answer to your question about how to know what gear for what move is to CONSULT YOUR DP. Tell him/her what youre after and if theyre competent theyll know what gear would be required for that shot and its worth it or feasible on your budget.

[Ryan Elder]

Sure. For my next project, I will try to find a DP that knows a lot more about that. I know that I would need a gimbal for sure, but not sure about the rest. As for a cheap steadicam, I thought a gimbal was better cause it seemed to be able to do some more moves, and has better follow focus options compared to a cheap steadicam, if that's true.

I read comparisons, and watched videos like this on it:

Glidecam VS. Zhiyun Crane 2 - YouTube

However, I was also told that a glidecam takes years to master, where as a gimbal can take only a few months. And there seems to be more gimbal operators out there, because I know a few, but do not know any filmmakers in my area that own a cheap steadicam. So would a gimbal be a better option then? But again, based on what I have read, the gimbal has better follow focus options, so if that is true, then would the gimbal win on that alone?

[Josh Bass]

AGain, why agonize over any of this rather than consult a pro dp?

[Ryan Elder]

Well it's just I wanted to have as much of it budgeted out on what I need, as much as possible before bringing any crew on board. Plus I wanted to have a preliminary shot list ready to go as much as I can cause once I start bringing crew on board, so much starts happening, that there is less time to do all the shots, so I wanted to have a preliminary one ready to go.

There is one thing though. I was told that in my video I did, that I was using a gimbal to do a dolly's or slider's job more so. However, in the video I posted where the guy did the glidecam vs. gimbal comparison, he does the exact same type of shot I did. So can that type of shot be done on a gimbal instead of a dolly then, if he did it?

But let's say I want to do a shot where the DP says I can't do with with the equipment we have. As director, for certain shots, should I just tell him to think outside the box, and figure it out with the equipment we have, compared to getting more?

[Paul R Johnson]

Steadicam type devices work on a totally different principle. if you jump up and down, the camera stays put. gimbals try to keep the camera pointing the same direction in the same orientation. That's quite a different thing. You seem to want the things a spring loaded device offers. If you hold a gimbal mount at arms length, then your bones and muscles do what they springs do and take out vertical movement. Hold it close to your body and it jerks around like mad - while staying pointing the same direction. Did you not know this?

DSLRs and gimbals became a bit of a fad - buy one and buy the other. Shoulder mount size cameras perform better on spring devices. The gimbal in them being simply low friction vs inertia to keep the pan direction the same(ish)

Picking the right kit needs experience.

[Ryan Elder]

No I didn't know that cause the comparisons I read or comparison videos I watch do not go into the movement being different if you hold it closer to you for example.

However, I read that there is a feature on the gimbal that can turn off, if you do not want the camera to stay pointed in the same direction. Is that true though, cause I thought they had that option. Plus on the gimbal, if you do not want the camera pointed in the same direction, can't you just hit the pan or tilt button, if you want the direction to change? At least that is what the gimbal operator seemed to do when operating the Moza Air 2 that we used before.

Plus I never saw vertical movement being an issue though. Can't we just embrace the vertical movement, rather than think of it as a flaw?

[Paul R Johnson]

Steadicam type devices work on a totally different principle. if you jump up and down, the camera stays put. gimbals try to keep the camera pointing the same direction in the same orientation. That's quite a different thing. You seem to want the things a spring loaded device offers. If you hold a gimbal mount at arms length, then your bones and muscles do what they springs do and take out vertical movement. Hold it close to your body and it jerks around like mad - while staying pointing the same direction. Did you not know this?

DSLRs and gimbals became a bit of a fad - buy one and buy the other. Shoulder mount size cameras perform better on spring devices. The gimbal in them being simply low friction vs inertia to keep the pan direction the same(ish)

The video really reviews two similar devices. Not a body attached device with arms and springs and a vest.
both suffer from the vertical movement issue.
Picking the right kit needs experience.

[John Nantz]

Started writing this before reading Paul’s post with the good explaination.

Every project has it’s “cost vs time vs want” decisions and a dolly setup is going to cost both time and money. Other options that cost less may work without significantly impacting the viewers senses in the movie so everything is a tradeoff.

Can’t tell if the subject is still about the martial arts info video or the full-length movie, but at least it isn’t about the star filter. is a more expensive system really needed? It’s hard to keep track of the subject being talked about here.

Yesterday my wife and I were watching a Public Broadcasting Station (PBS) movie called “100 Days, Dishers, Drinks & Destinations” where the cameraman (or woman, cam-person, or cam operator) used either a gimbal or a cam with OIS to follow the subject down a hallway. It was obviously not on a dolly but it was smooth enough that it didn’t detract from the scene. While I noticed, I don’t think my wife was paying any attention to it (movement) and was more interested in the action. I was also looking at the lighting and the color which both was very good but that is an aside. In any event, it was plenty good for the feature “travelog type” of movie.

Whether it’s a gimbal, or a cam with OIS, they both require practice to get the best out of them, and that includes knowing when, or when not, to use them. In some ways, further stabilization in post can almost make it look worse. Gold-plating can be a budget buster, or worse yet, a deal breaker.

In a static cam shot where one almost gets the tripod look, in my opinion it doesn’t look good. Best used if there is some camera movement like following the subject in order to mask there is stabilization being used and my favorite (now) is OIS (with the AX53). The electronic gimbal takes a little time to set up but if a horizontal horizon is needed then it is excellent for that purpose. In this case OIS can often be used to good effect with the moving target and it is quick and easy, and, it’s very easy on both the time and money budget. The Glidecam takes more time to set up and both it and the electronic gimbal have difficulties when combined with a mic.

Recommendation: get out there and network with people who have this equipment and see what they say, and hopefully get some demonstrations. If you can try something out and get some clips to play with on the computer that would be good. Deciding which way to go from a computer is helpful but hands-on is so much better.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks, I can do that. And I can try to find more gimbal or steadicam opeators. I wouldn't put a mic on the camera though, and have never done that yet. Yes I was mostly talking about the martial arts video, but also a project after that as well, where I would work with more crew.

[Brian Drysdale]

The key to Steadicam type devices is the arm, that allows the operator to maintain a constant height. Some now combine a gimbal type mount, so that you can do more advanced moves. However, you need to be highly skilled to do thus type of stuff.

ARRI Camera Stabilizer Systems Showreel - YouTube

Note that they don't replace a dolly.

The camera mic is standard on news cameras, but they are shock mounted to some extend and are commonly short shot gun type usually.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay sure. And yes I would want a separate operator to do it if I can.

Well for the martial arts video, I was planning on using a mic on a stand for the interview scene, and then for the fights, where I am operating the camera, I would probably just add folly later, and get some wild recordings, of their voices, as if they were being hit while doing heavy breathing, if that's best.