Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?

Brian Drysdale · September 26th, 2019, 01:01 AM

The longest briefing I can think of is in a film that in "Apocalypse Now", but there's more going on in that scene just the facts about Kurtz. also it's much longer film. They don't give everything, it's the bullet points, the rest is drip feed in sections through the film and they probably reveal as much about Willard (through his reactions) as Kurtz.

If it's 3 pages of script, be brutal and keep it to 3 minutes, ideally even shorter. You're making a genre film, so you don't want to take too long on the briefing. Come in late and get out as soon as possible, only give the information the audience requires, otherwise they'll forget the important stuff

Paying for a script report from a script reader/editor may be money well spent, although, you do need to interpret the feedback and make it your own. However, that will require work your part, since you can't ask them endless questions. This part of the process that feature films go through.

Ryan Elder · September 26th, 2019, 06:57 AM

Okay thanks, I was thinking of spending the money on that as well. The briefing scene was originally shorter, but some readers said there were unanswered questions, though, like why didn't they go over any dna here, why didn't they search the suspects trash, if they couldn't get a search warrant, etc.

I have scene movies with longer scenes that do not use a lot of shots. Kurosawa's types of shot set ups do that, but would today's audience think that is cheap, even for a microbudget thriller?

Brian Drysdale · September 26th, 2019, 08:18 AM

If readers are asking these questions there may be something missing elsewhere in your script. You may need to check on the admissibility of evidence in Canadian law regarding searching the trash and the location of that trash. It might give you a funny line .

I assume something has happened before this briefing.

Pete Cofrancesco · September 26th, 2019, 08:38 AM

While you should have an understanding of the process, it’s more important that the story be engaging and entertaining. I work in the legal field and I commonly see all sorts of disparities but it matters little if I like the movie/show. Do you know light sabers and traveling faster than the speed of light are physical impossibilities. Does that invalidate Star Wars? In film you have artistic license to do whatever necessary to concentrate on what matters most.

Paul R Johnson · September 26th, 2019, 09:59 AM

briefing scene is always a copout - explaining stuff in a lecture style is so dull. The only briefing police scenes that worked were Hill street blues in the 70s. Short, precise and very well designed.

Brian Drysdale · September 26th, 2019, 10:22 AM

A good briefing scene is always about more than the information about the case, if that's all that going on you should throw it away and think again. The other stiff can be more important in story terms and the characters can take the whole briefing off course because of the personalities involved and their flaws.

The main character in the French TV series "Spiral" is a female cop in Paris in charge of a small team of detectives: "she is known for her energy and tenacity but also for her tough and sometimes borderline methods. Devoted to her work, she is very attached to her men and would do anything to protect them when they make a mistake. Her private life is a mess and she seems unable to build a lasting relationship."

How would that affect your briefing and what happens in it?

Ryan Elder · September 26th, 2019, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

If readers are asking these questions there may be something missing elsewhere in your script. You may need to check on the admissibility of evidence in Canadian law regarding searching the trash and the location of that trash. It might give you a funny line .

I assume something has happened before this briefing.

Oh well this is the second sequence. The first sequence is a crime that happens, the this second one, the inspector is presenting what evidence they have so far, to the others.

Brian Drysdale · September 26th, 2019, 12:57 PM

I suspect you'll lose the audience, those cops have to visit the scene, not talk about it. Show don't say.

Ryan Elder · September 26th, 2019, 05:03 PM

But I don't think the audience will get more information, if they visit the scene. I figure they would have less, because if I skip ahead till later, the cops have more to talk about now that information has been processed, compared to at the scene, where it is not so much.

Brian Drysdale · September 27th, 2019, 01:08 AM

You're not giving a lecture, you're telling a story and by giving a briefing at this stage you're falling into the trap that scriptwriters should avoid - a scene that is nothing else but exposition. Have the cops struggle for this information, actively engage the audience and they won't be asking about the DNA and the trash.

In "Heat" they don't have a briefing about the robbery, Lieutenant Vincent Hanna arrives on the scene and has to make sense of it. The audience quickly sees if he's good or another Inspector Clouseau by his actions.

The nearest I can think of for a straight briefing of this length is in 2001, at which point in the movie the first time audience was probably wondering at this stage, what is this film about? It has a certain corporate formally, which would fit with the public's image of these people when the film was made. However, it's not a thriller.

Ryan Elder · September 27th, 2019, 06:34 AM

Oh okay. Well I feel that with Heat though, the way it is written that way, is because everything was able to be figured out on the scene that they wanted.

Where as with mine, they have to wait for forensic evidence to get back to them, and they cannot have forensics figure out everything on the scene, DNA wise, so they need to wait for the report, before revealing the information to the audience, don't they?

Brian Drysdale · September 27th, 2019, 07:01 AM

They don't figure out everything at the scene in "Heat", they're just reading the scene, but there's still a long way to go finding suspects in the film and to prove the case.

You still need to find possible suspects for the DNA to be useful. Or the perpetrators were so good they didn't leave any DNA, .e.g. the escape vehicles were burnt together with the clothing, alternately they're not in the records. .

Ryan Elder · September 27th, 2019, 07:09 AM

Yep in mine they don't leave DNA, but I thought that if I show a previous scene where the cops check out the place, and then show the briefing later, that I would just be going over the same information twice, only the second time with the answers, so I thought it would be best to kill two birds with one stone and just show the second scene. Plus if I were to show the scene of them at the crime, and then have the answers later at the briefing once the reports come in, wouldn't that feel like over explaining it, to have one scene follow the other like that?

I also wanted the script to be as short as it is now, and not add any scenes if possible, which means extra shooting of course. Perhaps I could have the police at the scene looking around, just not sure how to write it without it coming off as expository, if we get the same answers later.

Brian Drysdale · September 27th, 2019, 07:39 AM

Why do you need a briefing scene?

If it's just to say there's no DNA, that can be said anywhere.

Information can be given walking down the corridor in the police station, pouring coffee in the detective's office, at the shooting range, while in the middle of conversations about other things, buying fast food. The detectives may be working on other cases, so the info comes while on the other cases, plus it puts pressure on your characters. The inspector's boss wanting results, so a quick verbal report is given while trying to get him off the inspector's back.

Ryan Elder · September 27th, 2019, 04:22 PM

Oh they have more to go over besides lack of DNA. Who this suspect is, who this victim of the crime was, etc.

I just thought that a briefing scene would add a sense of urgency to it for the audience. Movies like The Departed (2006), The Hunt For Red October (1990), or The Battle of Algiers (1966) or even High and Low (1963), for example, all have briefing scenes, cause when they discuss it in that kind of environment, it adds a larger sense of urgency compared to by the coffee machine, or at the shooting range, or something like that. Isn't that why other movies have it in briefings to show that the police mean business on this case?

September 26th, 2019, 01:01 AM	#136
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? The longest briefing I can think of is in a film that in "Apocalypse Now", but there's more going on in that scene just the facts about Kurtz. also it's much longer film. They don't give everything, it's the bullet points, the rest is drip feed in sections through the film and they probably reveal as much about Willard (through his reactions) as Kurtz. If it's 3 pages of script, be brutal and keep it to 3 minutes, ideally even shorter. You're making a genre film, so you don't want to take too long on the briefing. Come in late and get out as soon as possible, only give the information the audience requires, otherwise they'll forget the important stuff Paying for a script report from a script reader/editor may be money well spent, although, you do need to interpret the feedback and make it your own. However, that will require work your part, since you can't ask them endless questions. This part of the process that feature films go through.

September 26th, 2019, 06:57 AM	#137
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? Okay thanks, I was thinking of spending the money on that as well. The briefing scene was originally shorter, but some readers said there were unanswered questions, though, like why didn't they go over any dna here, why didn't they search the suspects trash, if they couldn't get a search warrant, etc. I have scene movies with longer scenes that do not use a lot of shots. Kurosawa's types of shot set ups do that, but would today's audience think that is cheap, even for a microbudget thriller?

September 26th, 2019, 08:18 AM	#138
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? If readers are asking these questions there may be something missing elsewhere in your script. You may need to check on the admissibility of evidence in Canadian law regarding searching the trash and the location of that trash. It might give you a funny line . I assume something has happened before this briefing.

September 26th, 2019, 08:38 AM	#139
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? While you should have an understanding of the process, it’s more important that the story be engaging and entertaining. I work in the legal field and I commonly see all sorts of disparities but it matters little if I like the movie/show. Do you know light sabers and traveling faster than the speed of light are physical impossibilities. Does that invalidate Star Wars? In film you have artistic license to do whatever necessary to concentrate on what matters most.

September 26th, 2019, 09:59 AM	#140
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? briefing scene is always a copout - explaining stuff in a lecture style is so dull. The only briefing police scenes that worked were Hill street blues in the 70s. Short, precise and very well designed.

September 26th, 2019, 10:22 AM	#141
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? A good briefing scene is always about more than the information about the case, if that's all that going on you should throw it away and think again. The other stiff can be more important in story terms and the characters can take the whole briefing off course because of the personalities involved and their flaws. The main character in the French TV series "Spiral" is a female cop in Paris in charge of a small team of detectives: "she is known for her energy and tenacity but also for her tough and sometimes borderline methods. Devoted to her work, she is very attached to her men and would do anything to protect them when they make a mistake. Her private life is a mess and she seems unable to build a lasting relationship." How would that affect your briefing and what happens in it?

September 26th, 2019, 12:57 PM	#143
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? I suspect you'll lose the audience, those cops have to visit the scene, not talk about it. Show don't say.

September 26th, 2019, 05:03 PM	#144
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? But I don't think the audience will get more information, if they visit the scene. I figure they would have less, because if I skip ahead till later, the cops have more to talk about now that information has been processed, compared to at the scene, where it is not so much.

September 27th, 2019, 01:08 AM	#145
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? You're not giving a lecture, you're telling a story and by giving a briefing at this stage you're falling into the trap that scriptwriters should avoid - a scene that is nothing else but exposition. Have the cops struggle for this information, actively engage the audience and they won't be asking about the DNA and the trash. In "Heat" they don't have a briefing about the robbery, Lieutenant Vincent Hanna arrives on the scene and has to make sense of it. The audience quickly sees if he's good or another Inspector Clouseau by his actions. The nearest I can think of for a straight briefing of this length is in 2001, at which point in the movie the first time audience was probably wondering at this stage, what is this film about? It has a certain corporate formally, which would fit with the public's image of these people when the film was made. However, it's not a thriller. 2001: A Space Odyssey -- Dr Heywood Floyd Moon Base Briefing - YouTube Last edited by Brian Drysdale; September 27th, 2019 at 05:24 AM.

September 27th, 2019, 06:34 AM	#146
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? Oh okay. Well I feel that with Heat though, the way it is written that way, is because everything was able to be figured out on the scene that they wanted. Where as with mine, they have to wait for forensic evidence to get back to them, and they cannot have forensics figure out everything on the scene, DNA wise, so they need to wait for the report, before revealing the information to the audience, don't they?

September 27th, 2019, 07:01 AM	#147
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? They don't figure out everything at the scene in "Heat", they're just reading the scene, but there's still a long way to go finding suspects in the film and to prove the case. You still need to find possible suspects for the DNA to be useful. Or the perpetrators were so good they didn't leave any DNA, .e.g. the escape vehicles were burnt together with the clothing, alternately they're not in the records. .

September 27th, 2019, 07:09 AM	#148
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? Yep in mine they don't leave DNA, but I thought that if I show a previous scene where the cops check out the place, and then show the briefing later, that I would just be going over the same information twice, only the second time with the answers, so I thought it would be best to kill two birds with one stone and just show the second scene. Plus if I were to show the scene of them at the crime, and then have the answers later at the briefing once the reports come in, wouldn't that feel like over explaining it, to have one scene follow the other like that? I also wanted the script to be as short as it is now, and not add any scenes if possible, which means extra shooting of course. Perhaps I could have the police at the scene looking around, just not sure how to write it without it coming off as expository, if we get the same answers later.

September 27th, 2019, 07:39 AM	#149
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? Why do you need a briefing scene? If it's just to say there's no DNA, that can be said anywhere. Information can be given walking down the corridor in the police station, pouring coffee in the detective's office, at the shooting range, while in the middle of conversations about other things, buying fast food. The detectives may be working on other cases, so the info comes while on the other cases, plus it puts pressure on your characters. The inspector's boss wanting results, so a quick verbal report is given while trying to get him off the inspector's back.

September 27th, 2019, 04:22 PM	#150
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? Oh they have more to go over besides lack of DNA. Who this suspect is, who this victim of the crime was, etc. I just thought that a briefing scene would add a sense of urgency to it for the audience. Movies like The Departed (2006), The Hunt For Red October (1990), or The Battle of Algiers (1966) or even High and Low (1963), for example, all have briefing scenes, cause when they discuss it in that kind of environment, it adds a larger sense of urgency compared to by the coffee machine, or at the shooting range, or something like that. Isn't that why other movies have it in briefings to show that the police mean business on this case?