Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking at DVinfo.net

Silas Barker · December 5th, 2011, 05:26 PM

Check out these important Specs, considering getting the Scarlet but then I have the 5D.....

Canon 5D 38ish Mps Bit Rate
Canon 7D 47ish Mps Bit Rate (and 30 and 24 fps, not sure at 60fps??)
Red Scarlet 50 Mps (60fps at 2k, 120fps at 1k)

Canon 5D 5,616 × 3,744 pixels Sensor, at 36 x 24mm
Scarlet 5120 x 2700 pixels, 27mm x 14mm

Red Epic uses same sensor as Scarlet but has a higher Mps (believe its at 250) and more frames per seconds options.

I was originally thinking of getting the Scarlet to replace my 5D, but now I am considering if a 7D would be a nice addition (slow motion and high bit rate) since the compression is nearly the same. I had hoped for a less compressed image from Scarlet for grading, but not sure if the $14,000 is worth it, plus $2000 for upgrading software to run Red. (I have cs3 right now).

Thoughts?

Of course, the Red Scarlet is a real video camera, has less rolling shutter, probably a better image, and I hear it has a auto focus all though I ve never seen a good auto focus from a cmos sensor. I am sure there are other great benefits to using Scarlet but I would like to know what you all think and if its work the $$$$$

EDIT:

Red Scarlet: REDCODE RAW at 50MB/sec (440 megabits/sec)
RED Scarlet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Canon 5D: 38 Megabits per second
Canon EOS 5D Mark II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ken Diewert · December 5th, 2011, 08:24 PM

Hey Silas,

I've been working with an Epic for the last few weeks and have been considering a scarlet. You should be aware of a few things. First, you will need way more than the $14,000 starter kit to actually get started. The 'kit' comes with 1- 64gb SSD card. This is like shooting the 5d2 with a single 4gb CF card. Extra 64gb SSD are $950 each. We're using 4- 128gb SSD. They are $1800.00 each. The 128gb SSD hold about 30 mins of footage at our current compression rate. Also the 2- Red Volt batteries in the 'kit' last about 30 minutes each (in standby mode). And though the kit ships with AC, this only works when you have power available.

You should expect to add at least 5,000 to the starter kit, just for basic use.

You really need to assess what you'll be using the camera for. Personally, i'm looking to see how the C300 shakes down. 1080p, a full frame sensor, EF compatibility, 50mbps to the XF codec would suit 90% of the work that I do.

Chris Luker · December 5th, 2011, 08:47 PM

I have the 7d, have had a RED one and have ordered a Scarlet.
The 7d shoots great looking video. But, it overheats and can't shoot for long periods of time.
No autofocus either.
One thing to remember is Canon skips lines to get video, so you're not using the whole sensor in video acquisition. But, you can get 7 of the 7ds for the price of a Scarlet.

Very different cameras. But I'm thinking of keeping the 7D on set for a second cam... at least for BTS footage.

Silas Barker · December 6th, 2011, 02:55 AM

Interesting....

For me, I want to make films for DVD and Blu Ray.

So would it make sense to get the Scarlet if I have the 5D already?

It sounds like its going to cost me about $20,000 to be able to use scarlet in fast paced filming situations.
And what would I have as an advantage over the 5D if I get it?

Brian Drysdale · December 6th, 2011, 03:52 AM

5D Advantages:
Cheap
More shallow DOF with full sensor
Could be more sensitive than a Scarlet

Scarlet advantages
Moire not a problem
Resolution hugely better
Better dynamic range
Less compression
RAW allows more grading in post
Much lower levels of skew
No 12 min clip limit

Scarlet disadvantage compared to 5D
More expensive
Needs more power
Heavier
Uses RAW, which may be an issue with fast turnaround material. Either that or you need to buy an external recorder.

Silas Barker · December 6th, 2011, 02:39 PM

Thanks for the comments, guys!

Couple more things I ve been thinking about:

I heard that the Scarlet has the same sensor as Epic, so the Depth of field should be pretty good even if its less then the Canon 5D, right? (I would be using fast canon lenses (f1.4 - 2.8) on the Scarlet if I get it).

Also, I heard that the scarlet does not use the full pixels unless your using the full 5k output, so for 2k which I would mainly use probably, it would only use a portion of the sensor (cropped sensor). I forgot where I heard this (Philip Bloom or Film Riot or someone) but it sounded like it would be annoying to be only using a cropped sensor. How difficult would it be to just shoot everything at 5k and then downsize it all to 2k?

One more thing: Compression..
Do you guys think that 50mps compression vs the 5D 38mps or 7d 47mps is much different? Is there an uncompressed or Raw output that could be used for grading or do you only get 50mps out from Scarlet?

Thanks in advance! I am looking to make films with Scarlet, but most filming stuff I do has time constraints so I am really trying to see if its worth the money or not to do this. I would also be doing TV commercials with it as well and music videos.

Brian Drysdale · December 6th, 2011, 03:21 PM

Don't confuse bytes with bits, RED quote in bytes. 42MB/s on a RED equals 336 Mbit/s, so the DSLRs are way back in the distance in that regard. The Scarlet has compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1

For full resolution you'd downsample in post to 2K or HD, but you record at 4k for that. The windowed 2k in camera is something you'd use if wanting higher frame rates or to use 16mm lenses on the camera.

The DOF will be slightly deeper on the Epic, but in story telling terms the difference is pretty meaningless.

Silas Barker · December 6th, 2011, 03:36 PM

Oh, so the Scarlet is much less compressed then I thought??!! So for grading and editing the footage there would be much less noise and artifacts and such with the Scarlet then? This is good news indeed!

Red Scarlet: REDCODE RAW at 50MB/sec (440 megabits/sec)
RED Scarlet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Canon 5D: 38 Megabits per second
Canon EOS 5D Mark II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So probably shoot in 4k most of the time then I imagine to be using most of the sensor? (for Blu Ray delivery)

Silas Barker · December 6th, 2011, 05:36 PM

One more thing:

There is no instant review of footage on the scarlet?

Are there any work arounds this to be able to do that on the shoot?

Chris Luker · December 6th, 2011, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas Barker

So probably shoot in 4k most of the time then I imagine to be using most of the sensor? (for Blu Ray delivery)

Yes! Use the resolution!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas Barker

One more thing:

There is no instant review of footage on the scarlet?

Playback is enabled in all shipping Scarlets. ;)

Silas Barker · December 6th, 2011, 09:07 PM

WOW! Instant playback? I thought I had read that it did not have that. Interesting.

So really, if you have extra batteries and latest software to read Red Raw there are really no advantages to using the Canon 5D then sounds like....I think I might get it!

Any other helpful information anyone has about it would be appreciated!

Ken Diewert · December 6th, 2011, 09:35 PM

Hey Silas,

You should read Phil Blooms blog post. He is a veteran DSLR shooter who has owned a Epic for 5 months. To buy a Scarlet or not to buy, that is the question… | Philip Bloom

Im a big fan of Red, and may end up with a Scarlet. But just go into it with your eyes open.

Silas Barker · December 6th, 2011, 10:27 PM

Thanks for the link Ken, I read that post from Bloom before, but Its nice to go over it again....so in a fast paced film making shoot, looks like I would probably need 12 batteries and 4 128 gig cards, that's a lot of $$$. That's unfortunate. One thing that worries me a little is how Bloom mentioned that the Epic was not that reliable. That's crazy for the money.

So if I get the Canon Mount Scarlet Package for $14,015 what else would I need?
(I already have Canon Lenses and I would get Adobe CS6 when it comes out too, native RED support)

Extra Batteries ($195 each, probably 10 extra)
Red Mag Memory 128 GIG ($1800 each, probably at least a few of these?)
Anything Else? Do I need Red Rocket or anything for post besides Adobe CS6 when it comes out?

Chris Luker · December 6th, 2011, 11:03 PM

You just need a tripod, and lights, and audio gear (no built in mic)... don't forget craft services too...
Oh, and you don't 'need' a red rocket card, but transcoding is waaaaaaaaaay faster with one.

Silas Barker · December 6th, 2011, 11:30 PM

Got the Lights and Audio....UH I guess add on $5000 for the Red Rocket ): ?

December 5th, 2011, 05:26 PM	#1
Silas Barker Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 577	Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking Check out these important Specs, considering getting the Scarlet but then I have the 5D..... Canon 5D 38ish Mps Bit Rate Canon 7D 47ish Mps Bit Rate (and 30 and 24 fps, not sure at 60fps??) Red Scarlet 50 Mps (60fps at 2k, 120fps at 1k) Canon 5D 5,616 × 3,744 pixels Sensor, at 36 x 24mm Scarlet 5120 x 2700 pixels, 27mm x 14mm Red Epic uses same sensor as Scarlet but has a higher Mps (believe its at 250) and more frames per seconds options. I was originally thinking of getting the Scarlet to replace my 5D, but now I am considering if a 7D would be a nice addition (slow motion and high bit rate) since the compression is nearly the same. I had hoped for a less compressed image from Scarlet for grading, but not sure if the $14,000 is worth it, plus $2000 for upgrading software to run Red. (I have cs3 right now). Thoughts? Of course, the Red Scarlet is a real video camera, has less rolling shutter, probably a better image, and I hear it has a auto focus all though I ve never seen a good auto focus from a cmos sensor. I am sure there are other great benefits to using Scarlet but I would like to know what you all think and if its work the $$$$$ EDIT: Red Scarlet: REDCODE RAW at 50MB/sec (440 megabits/sec) RED Scarlet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Canon 5D: 38 Megabits per second Canon EOS 5D Mark II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Last edited by Silas Barker; December 6th, 2011 at 03:36 PM. Reason: updated info

December 5th, 2011, 08:24 PM	#2
Ken Diewert Trustee Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Vancouver Island, Canada Posts: 1,200	Re: Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking Hey Silas, I've been working with an Epic for the last few weeks and have been considering a scarlet. You should be aware of a few things. First, you will need way more than the $14,000 starter kit to actually get started. The 'kit' comes with 1- 64gb SSD card. This is like shooting the 5d2 with a single 4gb CF card. Extra 64gb SSD are $950 each. We're using 4- 128gb SSD. They are $1800.00 each. The 128gb SSD hold about 30 mins of footage at our current compression rate. Also the 2- Red Volt batteries in the 'kit' last about 30 minutes each (in standby mode). And though the kit ships with AC, this only works when you have power available. You should expect to add at least 5,000 to the starter kit, just for basic use. You really need to assess what you'll be using the camera for. Personally, i'm looking to see how the C300 shakes down. 1080p, a full frame sensor, EF compatibility, 50mbps to the XF codec would suit 90% of the work that I do. __________________ C100, 5DMk2, FCPX

December 5th, 2011, 08:47 PM	#3
Chris Luker Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Woods Cross, Utah Posts: 310	Re: Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking I have the 7d, have had a RED one and have ordered a Scarlet. The 7d shoots great looking video. But, it overheats and can't shoot for long periods of time. No autofocus either. One thing to remember is Canon skips lines to get video, so you're not using the whole sensor in video acquisition. But, you can get 7 of the 7ds for the price of a Scarlet. Very different cameras. But I'm thinking of keeping the 7D on set for a second cam... at least for BTS footage.

December 6th, 2011, 02:55 AM	#4
Silas Barker Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 577	Re: Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking Interesting.... For me, I want to make films for DVD and Blu Ray. So would it make sense to get the Scarlet if I have the 5D already? It sounds like its going to cost me about $20,000 to be able to use scarlet in fast paced filming situations. And what would I have as an advantage over the 5D if I get it?

December 6th, 2011, 03:52 AM	#5
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking 5D Advantages: Cheap More shallow DOF with full sensor Could be more sensitive than a Scarlet Scarlet advantages Moire not a problem Resolution hugely better Better dynamic range Less compression RAW allows more grading in post Much lower levels of skew No 12 min clip limit Scarlet disadvantage compared to 5D More expensive Needs more power Heavier Uses RAW, which may be an issue with fast turnaround material. Either that or you need to buy an external recorder.

December 6th, 2011, 02:39 PM	#6
Silas Barker Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 577	Re: Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking Thanks for the comments, guys! Couple more things I ve been thinking about: I heard that the Scarlet has the same sensor as Epic, so the Depth of field should be pretty good even if its less then the Canon 5D, right? (I would be using fast canon lenses (f1.4 - 2.8) on the Scarlet if I get it). Also, I heard that the scarlet does not use the full pixels unless your using the full 5k output, so for 2k which I would mainly use probably, it would only use a portion of the sensor (cropped sensor). I forgot where I heard this (Philip Bloom or Film Riot or someone) but it sounded like it would be annoying to be only using a cropped sensor. How difficult would it be to just shoot everything at 5k and then downsize it all to 2k? One more thing: Compression.. Do you guys think that 50mps compression vs the 5D 38mps or 7d 47mps is much different? Is there an uncompressed or Raw output that could be used for grading or do you only get 50mps out from Scarlet? Thanks in advance! I am looking to make films with Scarlet, but most filming stuff I do has time constraints so I am really trying to see if its worth the money or not to do this. I would also be doing TV commercials with it as well and music videos.

December 6th, 2011, 03:21 PM	#7
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking Don't confuse bytes with bits, RED quote in bytes. 42MB/s on a RED equals 336 Mbit/s, so the DSLRs are way back in the distance in that regard. The Scarlet has compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1 For full resolution you'd downsample in post to 2K or HD, but you record at 4k for that. The windowed 2k in camera is something you'd use if wanting higher frame rates or to use 16mm lenses on the camera. The DOF will be slightly deeper on the Epic, but in story telling terms the difference is pretty meaningless.

December 6th, 2011, 03:36 PM	#8
Silas Barker Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 577	Re: Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking Oh, so the Scarlet is much less compressed then I thought??!! So for grading and editing the footage there would be much less noise and artifacts and such with the Scarlet then? This is good news indeed! Red Scarlet: REDCODE RAW at 50MB/sec (440 megabits/sec) RED Scarlet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Canon 5D: 38 Megabits per second Canon EOS 5D Mark II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia So probably shoot in 4k most of the time then I imagine to be using most of the sensor? (for Blu Ray delivery)

December 6th, 2011, 05:36 PM	#9
Silas Barker Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 577	Re: Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking One more thing: There is no instant review of footage on the scarlet? Are there any work arounds this to be able to do that on the shoot?

December 6th, 2011, 09:07 PM	#11
Silas Barker Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 577	Re: Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking WOW! Instant playback? I thought I had read that it did not have that. Interesting. So really, if you have extra batteries and latest software to read Red Raw there are really no advantages to using the Canon 5D then sounds like....I think I might get it! Any other helpful information anyone has about it would be appreciated!

December 6th, 2011, 09:35 PM	#12
Ken Diewert Trustee Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Vancouver Island, Canada Posts: 1,200	Re: Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking Hey Silas, You should read Phil Blooms blog post. He is a veteran DSLR shooter who has owned a Epic for 5 months. To buy a Scarlet or not to buy, that is the question… \| Philip Bloom Im a big fan of Red, and may end up with a Scarlet. But just go into it with your eyes open. __________________ C100, 5DMk2, FCPX

December 6th, 2011, 10:27 PM	#13
Silas Barker Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 577	Re: Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking Thanks for the link Ken, I read that post from Bloom before, but Its nice to go over it again....so in a fast paced film making shoot, looks like I would probably need 12 batteries and 4 128 gig cards, that's a lot of $$$. That's unfortunate. One thing that worries me a little is how Bloom mentioned that the Epic was not that reliable. That's crazy for the money. So if I get the Canon Mount Scarlet Package for $14,015 what else would I need? (I already have Canon Lenses and I would get Adobe CS6 when it comes out too, native RED support) Extra Batteries ($195 each, probably 10 extra) Red Mag Memory 128 GIG ($1800 each, probably at least a few of these?) Anything Else? Do I need Red Rocket or anything for post besides Adobe CS6 when it comes out?

December 6th, 2011, 11:03 PM	#14
Chris Luker Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Woods Cross, Utah Posts: 310	Re: Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking You just need a tripod, and lights, and audio gear (no built in mic)... don't forget craft services too... Oh, and you don't 'need' a red rocket card, but transcoding is waaaaaaaaaay faster with one.

December 6th, 2011, 11:30 PM	#15
Silas Barker Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 577	Re: Canon 5D Versus Red Scarlet for Filmmaking Got the Lights and Audio....UH I guess add on $5000 for the Red Rocket ): ?