Why is Frame Mode frowned upon for film transfer. And why does 60i look slow at 24p? at DVinfo.net

James A. Davis · May 2nd, 2005, 09:31 PM

On the DV to Film transfer facility website, it says don't shoot with frame mode unless you have a 24p cam (DVX-100/XL2). Why? And why does it look sooo slow when I use DVFilmMaker to convert my projects to 24p? I mean it converts it but it looks a sluggish. Is that because it's processesing almost 60 fps even though it's deinterlaced in motion. When I saw Open Water (which was shot at 60i on a VX2000) it looked alot faster/smoother. Is that because it was consistent cycle motion on a film reel as oposed to 24fps on computer? Any help would be loved.

Aaron Koolen · May 2nd, 2005, 09:56 PM

Well as far as frame mode goes, I'd imagine that'd be a bad thing because of your frame rate difference (In NTSC land). You'd have to do some interpolation conversion from 30 to 24 <shudder>, or if you just laid down frame for frame to 24, you'd have a movie running in fast motion.

Aaron

James A. Davis · May 2nd, 2005, 10:04 PM

Is it for our own video library or do you use that software for converting your 60i to 24p for film transfer? I was under the assumption you just gave the company doing your film conversion your 60i tape. Answers please?

Michael Struthers · May 3rd, 2005, 12:38 AM

You spend 300k on your transfer and color correction like they did in Open Water, your vx2000 flick will look pretty decent.

Dominic Jones · May 3rd, 2005, 04:33 AM

As Michael says, the transfer lab will do a better job than any piece of home kit ever will - so that's the best, but also most expensive, bet... Although, with the amount it's going to cost you to do the transfer, it would be well advised (imho) to let the lab handle al aspects of the transfer.

The main advice here is: speak to your lab, then do as they say!

Also, 60i laid down frame-for-frame will actually give you slight slow motion, rather than fast (as you are effectively shooting at 30fps). As Aaron states 30p->24p will be horrid, which is why frame mode at 30fps (from 60i) is to be avoided.

A very good way to get to film from video is to shoot PAL standard - it's got a larger frame (=more detail, better picture) to start with and can be laid down frame for frame with only a 4% difference in running speed, which is not noticable. Your audio will need slight correcting for the pitch shift (which will make everything a little deeper in tone if not corrected - however, some like this effect). This is a method of transfer (both to and from film) that has been used here in Europe for decades, and works very well - I've done it several times...

Mathieu Ghekiere · May 3rd, 2005, 12:37 PM

If I'm right, but I'll ask anyway, shooting in Frame Mode in PAL (25P) is not such a big problem for film transfers?
(I don't have a film transfer planned, just asking out of curiousity)
Thanks,

Dominic Jones · May 3rd, 2005, 01:44 PM

Yes, that's exactly right - because you can simply disregard the 4% change in speed - it isn't noticable. This is not a workaround, but rather the employed method of transfering 25p to 24p, in either direction, by the entire PAL film industry.

Now that there are cameras, like the Z1 (and the HD-100, although that has 24p, which would clearly make shooting at 25p redundant!), that can shoot 50i or 60i (and 30p or 25p, which would also be fine), this will likely become an increasing trend in the NTSC parts of the world as well.

If you want to go to 60i (or 30p) then you can do a standard pulldown from the 24p rate of the source, providing as good a transfer as from native 24p footage to boot.

May 2nd, 2005, 09:31 PM	#1
James A. Davis Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 90	Why is Frame Mode frowned upon for film transfer. And why does 60i look slow at 24p? On the DV to Film transfer facility website, it says don't shoot with frame mode unless you have a 24p cam (DVX-100/XL2). Why? And why does it look sooo slow when I use DVFilmMaker to convert my projects to 24p? I mean it converts it but it looks a sluggish. Is that because it's processesing almost 60 fps even though it's deinterlaced in motion. When I saw Open Water (which was shot at 60i on a VX2000) it looked alot faster/smoother. Is that because it was consistent cycle motion on a film reel as oposed to 24fps on computer? Any help would be loved.

May 2nd, 2005, 09:56 PM	#2
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Well as far as frame mode goes, I'd imagine that'd be a bad thing because of your frame rate difference (In NTSC land). You'd have to do some interpolation conversion from 30 to 24 <shudder>, or if you just laid down frame for frame to 24, you'd have a movie running in fast motion. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

May 2nd, 2005, 10:04 PM	#3
James A. Davis Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 90	Is DVFilmaker, Vegas, and all the other 60i to 24p software for personal viewing? Is it for our own video library or do you use that software for converting your 60i to 24p for film transfer? I was under the assumption you just gave the company doing your film conversion your 60i tape. Answers please?

May 3rd, 2005, 12:38 AM	#4
Michael Struthers Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: SF, Ca Posts: 421	You spend 300k on your transfer and color correction like they did in Open Water, your vx2000 flick will look pretty decent. __________________ Michael Struthers www.buzzdigital.com

May 3rd, 2005, 04:33 AM	#5
Dominic Jones Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 225	As Michael says, the transfer lab will do a better job than any piece of home kit ever will - so that's the best, but also most expensive, bet... Although, with the amount it's going to cost you to do the transfer, it would be well advised (imho) to let the lab handle al aspects of the transfer. The main advice here is: speak to your lab, then do as they say! Also, 60i laid down frame-for-frame will actually give you slight slow motion, rather than fast (as you are effectively shooting at 30fps). As Aaron states 30p->24p will be horrid, which is why frame mode at 30fps (from 60i) is to be avoided. A very good way to get to film from video is to shoot PAL standard - it's got a larger frame (=more detail, better picture) to start with and can be laid down frame for frame with only a 4% difference in running speed, which is not noticable. Your audio will need slight correcting for the pitch shift (which will make everything a little deeper in tone if not corrected - however, some like this effect). This is a method of transfer (both to and from film) that has been used here in Europe for decades, and works very well - I've done it several times...

May 3rd, 2005, 12:37 PM	#6
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	If I'm right, but I'll ask anyway, shooting in Frame Mode in PAL (25P) is not such a big problem for film transfers? (I don't have a film transfer planned, just asking out of curiousity) Thanks,

May 3rd, 2005, 01:44 PM	#7
Dominic Jones Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 225	Yes, that's exactly right - because you can simply disregard the 4% change in speed - it isn't noticable. This is not a workaround, but rather the employed method of transfering 25p to 24p, in either direction, by the entire PAL film industry. Now that there are cameras, like the Z1 (and the HD-100, although that has 24p, which would clearly make shooting at 25p redundant!), that can shoot 50i or 60i (and 30p or 25p, which would also be fine), this will likely become an increasing trend in the NTSC parts of the world as well. If you want to go to 60i (or 30p) then you can do a standard pulldown from the 24p rate of the source, providing as good a transfer as from native 24p footage to boot.