Question about,cinemotion and cinelook at DVinfo.net

Joe Cox · April 27th, 2005, 04:35 AM

yo whats up! i know this is going to be annoying because you guys are ben trying to explain on how to make a film look in almost everything..i read almost every article about it i think and they are really good but it doesnt work on mine so i purchased cinelook and cinemotion...ok this is my question...when i apply presets in cinelook almost every single one of the 35mm ones are too bluish...the backround turns blue...i mean idk whats wrong but i want to fix it soo bad!do u think you guys can help me with that...is it my sucky dv camcorder or i just need to adjust something in the cinelook or cinemotion....guys can u help me with these....i have premiere,after effects,cinelook & cinemotion...what can i do to fix this prob with these softwares...thx very much! peace!

Xander Christ · April 27th, 2005, 03:19 PM

I use CineLook and CineMotion almost exclusively to create the film look for SD interlaced footage. Most of my clients like the look. You are correct in that all the 35mm and 16mm presets are too much in both color and grain. DigiEffects did this on purpose because if the effect was too subtle (which it should be), end users might not realize what's going with the image. I personally use the Fuji stocks for most of my work. I generally cut all the preset values by 3, 4 or 5; so if the R grain is set for '10', I usually cut the value to something like 2.

I also dink around with the curves on a scene-by-scene basis to ensure color continuity, but understanding color correction is more trial and error than some exact science or preset (everyone's eyes are different)... if you can get a Gretag MacBeth color checker in the footage, more power to you as you'll then see exactly what you need to correct. In order to get the most out of CineLook, make sure your neutrals (black to white) remain neutral (greys should be grey). CineLook's presets deviate wildly (but not as bad as Magic Bullet for Editors... eewwww).

As far as camcorder settings, any decent 3-chipper should work fine (Canon's Optura Xi with RGB primary filter works very well too and that's an 1-chip camera). Make sure you always use a shutter speed of 1/60th sec to maintain consistant motion blur (high shutter speeds induce horrific flickering in my experience) and white balance everytime your lighting setup changes. 0 dB for gain is helpful for minimizing noise as CineLook will add grain (noise and grain competing hurts the eyes). Regardless what people suggest, properly expose your footage (zebra stripes set to 80 IRE with skintone highlights barely showing stripes), don't underexpose (again, the Macbeth Color Checker works marvels, or use Serious's DV Rack).

CineMotion is optional, but I personally like the effect of the gate jumps and weaves. Film1 or Film2 is what I use. However, be aware that if you project the footage on screen larger than 6' the jumping will be quite noticable. I've had some clients complain about that even though they approved the footage after viewing it on a 27" Sony Trinitron CRT. If your output is on an LCD or plasma, it's better just to deinterlace and do color correction in Premiere rather than using CineLook.

Joe Cox · April 27th, 2005, 04:00 PM

o ok so your saying that its better off to do the filmlook in premiere with color corrector??ya i read an article about that too but ill try to mess with the options like you said..i mean its just to bluish or redish...what main control do u think is affecting it?? thx for the reply...i didnt know that some1 would reply coz the question is being asked so many times..thx again!

Joe Cox · April 27th, 2005, 05:27 PM

do u only cut in the stock matches or in everysingle one of em???thx again!

Joe Cox · April 27th, 2005, 05:33 PM

umm in premiere...color corrector..do u have any tips...i found this one article but it didnt really help coz it was complicated and im not really a pro yet :) well thx again !

Frank Ladner · April 29th, 2005, 06:55 AM

Joe: I just wanted to drop a tip that works for me. Any time I add grain to SD (720x480) footage in After Effects, I first precomp the untouched footage on a 1080x720 layer (or you could even go to 1920x1080), then bring that layer into another comp and add the grain. I then render back out to 720x480. This gives you more subtle grain and to me looks more natural than the more blocky grain of 720x480.

I use this technique when applying other filters also, such as Unsharp Mask.

If you are interested simulating more than the color characteristics of film and want to convert the footage to 24p, I suggest Twixtor (http://www.revisionfx.com/rstwixtor.htm).

Hope this helps!

Dominic Jones · April 29th, 2005, 07:27 AM

For my money, I don't think grain is part of the equation in filmic looks. Unless you're going for a 16mm/Super-8 style of footage, in which case it can be quite useful...

Point in case - watch a DVD transfer of any high quality 35mm print (i.e. any Hollywood blockbuster or reasonably budgeted indie) - how much grain can you see?? That's right - none!

I think the most important factors are gamma curve adjustment, shooting well for the effect in post (which mainly entails good lighting - you can't add what's not there - and keeping all levels within the exposure latitude of the camera to maintain detail), black diffusion (which you cannot do in Cinelook, but MB will do) and contrast/brightness alteration as you would with any footage (up the contrast a touch, and lower the brightness to taste....)

But that's my outlook, and there'll be a hundred (or more!) other opinions.

April 27th, 2005, 04:35 AM	#1
Joe Cox New Boot Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 12	Question about,cinemotion and cinelook yo whats up! i know this is going to be annoying because you guys are ben trying to explain on how to make a film look in almost everything..i read almost every article about it i think and they are really good but it doesnt work on mine so i purchased cinelook and cinemotion...ok this is my question...when i apply presets in cinelook almost every single one of the 35mm ones are too bluish...the backround turns blue...i mean idk whats wrong but i want to fix it soo bad!do u think you guys can help me with that...is it my sucky dv camcorder or i just need to adjust something in the cinelook or cinemotion....guys can u help me with these....i have premiere,after effects,cinelook & cinemotion...what can i do to fix this prob with these softwares...thx very much! peace!

April 27th, 2005, 04:00 PM	#3
Joe Cox New Boot Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 12	thx for replying o ok so your saying that its better off to do the filmlook in premiere with color corrector??ya i read an article about that too but ill try to mess with the options like you said..i mean its just to bluish or redish...what main control do u think is affecting it?? thx for the reply...i didnt know that some1 would reply coz the question is being asked so many times..thx again!

April 27th, 2005, 05:27 PM	#4
Joe Cox New Boot Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 12	o ya do u only cut in the stock matches or in everysingle one of em???thx again!

April 27th, 2005, 05:33 PM	#5
Joe Cox New Boot Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 12	one more thing sorry :( umm in premiere...color corrector..do u have any tips...i found this one article but it didnt really help coz it was complicated and im not really a pro yet :) well thx again !

April 27th, 2005, 03:19 PM	#2
Xander Christ Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 115	I use CineLook and CineMotion almost exclusively to create the film look for SD interlaced footage. Most of my clients like the look. You are correct in that all the 35mm and 16mm presets are too much in both color and grain. DigiEffects did this on purpose because if the effect was too subtle (which it should be), end users might not realize what's going with the image. I personally use the Fuji stocks for most of my work. I generally cut all the preset values by 3, 4 or 5; so if the R grain is set for '10', I usually cut the value to something like 2. I also dink around with the curves on a scene-by-scene basis to ensure color continuity, but understanding color correction is more trial and error than some exact science or preset (everyone's eyes are different)... if you can get a Gretag MacBeth color checker in the footage, more power to you as you'll then see exactly what you need to correct. In order to get the most out of CineLook, make sure your neutrals (black to white) remain neutral (greys should be grey). CineLook's presets deviate wildly (but not as bad as Magic Bullet for Editors... eewwww). As far as camcorder settings, any decent 3-chipper should work fine (Canon's Optura Xi with RGB primary filter works very well too and that's an 1-chip camera). Make sure you always use a shutter speed of 1/60th sec to maintain consistant motion blur (high shutter speeds induce horrific flickering in my experience) and white balance everytime your lighting setup changes. 0 dB for gain is helpful for minimizing noise as CineLook will add grain (noise and grain competing hurts the eyes). Regardless what people suggest, properly expose your footage (zebra stripes set to 80 IRE with skintone highlights barely showing stripes), don't underexpose (again, the Macbeth Color Checker works marvels, or use Serious's DV Rack). CineMotion is optional, but I personally like the effect of the gate jumps and weaves. Film1 or Film2 is what I use. However, be aware that if you project the footage on screen larger than 6' the jumping will be quite noticable. I've had some clients complain about that even though they approved the footage after viewing it on a 27" Sony Trinitron CRT. If your output is on an LCD or plasma, it's better just to deinterlace and do color correction in Premiere rather than using CineLook.

April 29th, 2005, 06:55 AM	#6
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Joe: I just wanted to drop a tip that works for me. Any time I add grain to SD (720x480) footage in After Effects, I first precomp the untouched footage on a 1080x720 layer (or you could even go to 1920x1080), then bring that layer into another comp and add the grain. I then render back out to 720x480. This gives you more subtle grain and to me looks more natural than the more blocky grain of 720x480. I use this technique when applying other filters also, such as Unsharp Mask. If you are interested simulating more than the color characteristics of film and want to convert the footage to 24p, I suggest Twixtor (http://www.revisionfx.com/rstwixtor.htm). Hope this helps!

April 29th, 2005, 07:27 AM	#7
Dominic Jones Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 225	For my money, I don't think grain is part of the equation in filmic looks. Unless you're going for a 16mm/Super-8 style of footage, in which case it can be quite useful... Point in case - watch a DVD transfer of any high quality 35mm print (i.e. any Hollywood blockbuster or reasonably budgeted indie) - how much grain can you see?? That's right - none! I think the most important factors are gamma curve adjustment, shooting well for the effect in post (which mainly entails good lighting - you can't add what's not there - and keeping all levels within the exposure latitude of the camera to maintain detail), black diffusion (which you cannot do in Cinelook, but MB will do) and contrast/brightness alteration as you would with any footage (up the contrast a touch, and lower the brightness to taste....) But that's my outlook, and there'll be a hundred (or more!) other opinions.