Black & White easier to give film look than Color?? at DVinfo.net

Steve Witt · March 24th, 2005, 11:09 AM

I absolutely love beautiful black and white film. Would it be fair to say that aiming for a final product of black and white digital video would be easier to create a film look due to the fact you are not messing with colors. I realize that there is more to it that just the way colors look but that is one less thing to deal with. Can anyone elaborate? Thankyou.

Richard Alvarez · March 24th, 2005, 11:12 AM

Well... you're still dealing with the DOF issues, compared to say... 35mm. And good B&W film lighting is different than color lighting... especially if you are going after that 'noir' look.

We just finished a B&W future noir piece, that is currently doing the festival circuit. Shot on 35mm, but we are distributing it on DVD. Couldn't afford the final film-out print. For a look at the trailer and some stills go to www.nu-classicfilms.com and take a look at "After Twilight"

Steve Witt · March 24th, 2005, 11:23 AM

Richard, first of all I appreciate all the help that you give me in here. You have responded to several of my posts. Thanks a bunch.
I didn't realize that the stragedy for lighting was different in black & white. I need to do more research on this.
I looked at the movie website. looks great and good luck on the film festival circuit.

Richard Alvarez · March 24th, 2005, 11:26 AM

Well, color responds differently than black and white to light. And since you are not dressing people or sets in black in white, you have to understand the difference in color 'values' when they are changed to black and white. A must have if you intend to do this, is a black and white monitor on the set. At the very least you have an understanding of what the black and white image will look like, as you sit there in a technicolor environment.

Matthew Cherry · March 24th, 2005, 11:32 AM

I think it is much easier. But I grew up on Noir and still watch a lot of it.

To create realistic lighting is, in my mind, much more difficult than to create dramatic lighting...

Matt

Steve Witt · March 24th, 2005, 02:00 PM

Noir is beautiful in my opinion.
If a person is going to make a B&W project with digital video, and the camera itself has B&W mode, would you still shoot in color and just use a B&W monitor and take the color away in post?

Richard Alvarez · March 24th, 2005, 04:21 PM

Steve,

I don't know of any Mini DV cams that 'shoot in black and white'. I think they all shoot in color. The viewfinder can often be set to show in black and white only. Or, as in my case with the FU-1000, it is a black and white viewfinder.

Do a search on this forum, a long thread about just this topic has been covered before.

Matthew Cherry · March 24th, 2005, 05:20 PM

Actually, I shot my film noir "short" (a lighting test really) in B&W with an XL2 - I did this be adjusting the color gain down to 0. In hindsight I don't know why I bothered to do this instead of just doing it in post and adjusting the color on my production monitor during shooting.

You can see it here:

http://www.birthofthecool.com/films.html

Richard Alvarez · March 24th, 2005, 06:58 PM

Mathew.

Yeah, I remember the thread now. And I saw your short. Nice stuff. My point was the ccd's don't 'see' black and white the way black and white film sees 'only' black and white. They 'see' in color, and you take it out. Either in post (Which is the best place for it) Or, in camera between the ccd's and the tape.

Old school cameras of course, had color and black and white tubes.

Glenn Chan · March 24th, 2005, 08:06 PM

I suggest you shoot in black and white, as it allows more manipulation in post. I have a webpage with pictures showing the kind of things you can do with B&W images.

Playing around with channel blending (equivalent to colored filters in front of the lens): http://www.glennchan.info/fcpugto/sh...end/shot10.htm

You can also use secondary color correction to play around with your image more:
http://www.glennchan.info/fcpugto/sh...ies/shot11.htm

You can also use secondary color correction or chroma key to isolate flesh tones, then lower the contrast on it using a color curves plug-in. This can reduce shadows/texture on actor's faces.

Before: http://www.glennchan.info/Proofs/Pro...t-pre-look.jpg
After: http://www.glennchan.info/Proofs/Pro...-post-look.jpg
Sorry no roll-over there, and the pictures are in color (and the wall is very close to flesh tone color, so it gets affected too).

Monitoring on set: Find a monitor where you can turn the color/saturation down. If not, then there can be advantage to shooting B&W just for the visualization. Of course, you can temporarily shift to B&W in camera for visualization. Many consumer cameras have a B&W effect mode, which you can engage temorarily for visualization.

Dominic Jones · March 28th, 2005, 08:12 AM

I would disagree with capture in B+W.

All the camera is doing is de-saturating the image in RT and then recording to tape, which can be *exactly* mimiced in post. On film it's a different issue as B+W exhibits a much wider contrast latitude than colour neg stocks, but with video this is not the case (the CCD is still colour, remember!).

If shot in colour then it is possible to add filtration in post, which can be very handy, and you still hve the options of using colour should you change your mind (for instance, you could decide to go for a bleach-bypass look or a partial desaturation), and this comes at no cost to the original B+W image should you not change your mind. Keep your options open.

Points raised about the differences in shooting B+W vs colour are good, but for my money it's more of a headache for the Art Dept than the DoP, although use of colour filtration on lights and lens can dramatically alter your final image too...

If you are planning on shoting in B+W for the first time, my advice is to shoot a lot of tests, specifically as regards the redition of different colours of clothing, backgrounds etc (as mentioned above). A scene with a green shirt against a red wall might have tons of seperation in colour, but when desaturated you may end up with two identical shades of grey and a subject that sinks into the wall!!

Dominic Jones · March 28th, 2005, 08:15 AM

Sorry Glenn, I just re-read your post, and I think in fact I agree with you totally - but I think you mistyped...

Surely you meant shoot in colour as it allows more options in post??!

:)

Glenn Chan · March 28th, 2005, 10:25 AM

Oh wow, I had a brainfart there. Heh...

Yes, I did mean shoot in color as it allows more options in post.

Jon Fordham · March 29th, 2005, 02:45 PM

While I don't understand the aversion to making a decision and sticking with it (and don't wish to get into a debate over it), I do want to point out the advantage gained by shooting B&W in camera.

First of all CCD's are not color. Single CCD cameras require a filter mask to achieve color. And three CCD cameras use dichroic prisms that split the color to be processed by three seperate CCD's.

Second, the human eye is much more sensitive to changes in brightness than changes in color. Thus compression algorithms choose to compress color more than brightness. By eliminating color from the equation in-camera, the codec isn't stressing over color compression and can be focused on the brightness and contrast resulting in a better, cleaner image.

Matthew Cherry · March 29th, 2005, 09:10 PM

Interesting. My reasons were much more base! ;>

Really, I just wanted to get into the B&W mindset if you will, especially for a noir. Think of it as "Method Cinematography" - probably stupid to most people here, but for me, as a newcomer to all of this, I thought it was important. The scenes in my head were black and white, my inspiration was black and white. When I looked through the viewfinder or on my monitor (this was just a TV, I hadn't purchased a real production monitor yet) I wanted to see how my lighting looked in black and white.

Needed to get that B&W vibe thing going...

March 24th, 2005, 11:09 AM	#1
Steve Witt Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: kentucky, USA Posts: 429	Black & White easier to give film look than Color?? I absolutely love beautiful black and white film. Would it be fair to say that aiming for a final product of black and white digital video would be easier to create a film look due to the fact you are not messing with colors. I realize that there is more to it that just the way colors look but that is one less thing to deal with. Can anyone elaborate? Thankyou.

March 29th, 2005, 02:45 PM	#14
Jon Fordham Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 242	While I don't understand the aversion to making a decision and sticking with it (and don't wish to get into a debate over it), I do want to point out the advantage gained by shooting B&W in camera. First of all CCD's are not color. Single CCD cameras require a filter mask to achieve color. And three CCD cameras use dichroic prisms that split the color to be processed by three seperate CCD's. Second, the human eye is much more sensitive to changes in brightness than changes in color. Thus compression algorithms choose to compress color more than brightness. By eliminating color from the equation in-camera, the codec isn't stressing over color compression and can be focused on the brightness and contrast resulting in a better, cleaner image. __________________ Jon Fordham Director of Photography www.jonfordham.com

March 24th, 2005, 11:12 AM	#2
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Well... you're still dealing with the DOF issues, compared to say... 35mm. And good B&W film lighting is different than color lighting... especially if you are going after that 'noir' look. We just finished a B&W future noir piece, that is currently doing the festival circuit. Shot on 35mm, but we are distributing it on DVD. Couldn't afford the final film-out print. For a look at the trailer and some stills go to www.nu-classicfilms.com and take a look at "After Twilight"

March 24th, 2005, 11:23 AM	#3
Steve Witt Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: kentucky, USA Posts: 429	Richard, first of all I appreciate all the help that you give me in here. You have responded to several of my posts. Thanks a bunch. I didn't realize that the stragedy for lighting was different in black & white. I need to do more research on this. I looked at the movie website. looks great and good luck on the film festival circuit.

March 24th, 2005, 11:26 AM	#4
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Well, color responds differently than black and white to light. And since you are not dressing people or sets in black in white, you have to understand the difference in color 'values' when they are changed to black and white. A must have if you intend to do this, is a black and white monitor on the set. At the very least you have an understanding of what the black and white image will look like, as you sit there in a technicolor environment.

March 24th, 2005, 11:32 AM	#5
Matthew Cherry Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Stamford, CT United States Posts: 212	I think it is much easier. But I grew up on Noir and still watch a lot of it. To create realistic lighting is, in my mind, much more difficult than to create dramatic lighting... Matt

March 24th, 2005, 02:00 PM	#6
Steve Witt Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: kentucky, USA Posts: 429	Noir is beautiful in my opinion. If a person is going to make a B&W project with digital video, and the camera itself has B&W mode, would you still shoot in color and just use a B&W monitor and take the color away in post?

March 24th, 2005, 04:21 PM	#7
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Steve, I don't know of any Mini DV cams that 'shoot in black and white'. I think they all shoot in color. The viewfinder can often be set to show in black and white only. Or, as in my case with the FU-1000, it is a black and white viewfinder. Do a search on this forum, a long thread about just this topic has been covered before.

March 24th, 2005, 05:20 PM	#8
Matthew Cherry Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Stamford, CT United States Posts: 212	Actually, I shot my film noir "short" (a lighting test really) in B&W with an XL2 - I did this be adjusting the color gain down to 0. In hindsight I don't know why I bothered to do this instead of just doing it in post and adjusting the color on my production monitor during shooting. You can see it here: http://www.birthofthecool.com/films.html

March 24th, 2005, 06:58 PM	#9
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Mathew. Yeah, I remember the thread now. And I saw your short. Nice stuff. My point was the ccd's don't 'see' black and white the way black and white film sees 'only' black and white. They 'see' in color, and you take it out. Either in post (Which is the best place for it) Or, in camera between the ccd's and the tape. Old school cameras of course, had color and black and white tubes.

March 24th, 2005, 08:06 PM	#10
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	I suggest you shoot in black and white, as it allows more manipulation in post. I have a webpage with pictures showing the kind of things you can do with B&W images. Playing around with channel blending (equivalent to colored filters in front of the lens): http://www.glennchan.info/fcpugto/sh...end/shot10.htm You can also use secondary color correction to play around with your image more: http://www.glennchan.info/fcpugto/sh...ies/shot11.htm You can also use secondary color correction or chroma key to isolate flesh tones, then lower the contrast on it using a color curves plug-in. This can reduce shadows/texture on actor's faces. Before: http://www.glennchan.info/Proofs/Pro...t-pre-look.jpg After: http://www.glennchan.info/Proofs/Pro...-post-look.jpg Sorry no roll-over there, and the pictures are in color (and the wall is very close to flesh tone color, so it gets affected too). Monitoring on set: Find a monitor where you can turn the color/saturation down. If not, then there can be advantage to shooting B&W just for the visualization. Of course, you can temporarily shift to B&W in camera for visualization. Many consumer cameras have a B&W effect mode, which you can engage temorarily for visualization.

March 28th, 2005, 08:12 AM	#11
Dominic Jones Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 225	I would disagree with capture in B+W. All the camera is doing is de-saturating the image in RT and then recording to tape, which can be exactly mimiced in post. On film it's a different issue as B+W exhibits a much wider contrast latitude than colour neg stocks, but with video this is not the case (the CCD is still colour, remember!). If shot in colour then it is possible to add filtration in post, which can be very handy, and you still hve the options of using colour should you change your mind (for instance, you could decide to go for a bleach-bypass look or a partial desaturation), and this comes at no cost to the original B+W image should you not change your mind. Keep your options open. Points raised about the differences in shooting B+W vs colour are good, but for my money it's more of a headache for the Art Dept than the DoP, although use of colour filtration on lights and lens can dramatically alter your final image too... If you are planning on shoting in B+W for the first time, my advice is to shoot a lot of tests, specifically as regards the redition of different colours of clothing, backgrounds etc (as mentioned above). A scene with a green shirt against a red wall might have tons of seperation in colour, but when desaturated you may end up with two identical shades of grey and a subject that sinks into the wall!!

March 28th, 2005, 08:15 AM	#12
Dominic Jones Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 225	Sorry Glenn, I just re-read your post, and I think in fact I agree with you totally - but I think you mistyped... Surely you meant shoot in colour as it allows more options in post??! :)

March 28th, 2005, 10:25 AM	#13
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Oh wow, I had a brainfart there. Heh... Yes, I did mean shoot in color as it allows more options in post.

March 29th, 2005, 09:10 PM	#15
Matthew Cherry Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Stamford, CT United States Posts: 212	Interesting. My reasons were much more base! ;> Really, I just wanted to get into the B&W mindset if you will, especially for a noir. Think of it as "Method Cinematography" - probably stupid to most people here, but for me, as a newcomer to all of this, I thought it was important. The scenes in my head were black and white, my inspiration was black and white. When I looked through the viewfinder or on my monitor (this was just a TV, I hadn't purchased a real production monitor yet) I wanted to see how my lighting looked in black and white. Needed to get that B&W vibe thing going...