180° rule when establishing shot outside to inside?

[Jeremy Smith]

Say, there are a couple of gems in that one. Great guidelines.

On the vector note, how does one go about deciding when to jump the line of action if there is one? Why I ask, I would like to use a couple of over the shoulder shots for some people in the woods to create that feel of hugeness to the character. I'd like to use a poor man's steady cam and pan the shot ending on their face or OTS. I'm not looking for confusion, just the bigness of their environment. They are not lost exactly, just being chased and I'm trying to create fear or thrill. The shots prior to this will be cuts and TA's of them running right to left in the frame.

Any wisdom there?

Jer

[Jim Snow]

Depending on how it fits overall, one way to transition from outside to inside is to zoom in on something on or in a window and then transition to the same window element from the inside at the same scale and then pull out to your inside scene. If done well, tihs sort of technique can "forgive" the 180 rule.

[Jeremy Smith]

Hello Jim,

That is a great idea. The next challenge for me personally, would be the lighting. I have purchased some CTB gels to cool the color of some halogens (you have to start somewhere) to use inside to balance out door light and exposure. I do not have any sheets of neutral density gel for entire windows. I think I would have to experiment with what I have to keep the look consistent going from out side to inside.

It is my understanding and observation that the out side light is usually cool in color (unless high noon or golden hour) and light inside hovers around orange or green for the tungsten or flourescent lights. This is for another thread, photon management, but worth mentioning as part of the process.

Those are are all tools to play with and that is part of the fun, thank you for the suggestion.

Jer

[Jim Snow]

I wouldn't try to make the inside light match the outside light. Just make sure you set white balance for your inside and outside shots. You aren't attempting to hide the fact that you moved indoors but you do need to adjust your white balance when you do your inside shots so the colors are natural.

[Jeremy Smith]

Hello Jim, thank you for the thoughts, would not the possibility of that cool outside color mix with the tungsten, 'normal' inside lights on the actors' faces? I will be using makeup but I am trying to avoid that cool blue window look as I have seen in many new inde movies. That is all I am going after.

I will try it your way and see, that was just what I was thinking prior to getting to it.

Thanks,

Jer

[Jim Snow]

Jeremy, I'm generally in favor of shooting for balanced color and then color grade in post for any desired effects (warmer, cooler, less or more saturated etc.) If you are concerned about the lighting at the particular spot where the subjects are positioned, you can do a white balance at the exact spot where they are.

I recommended that you also look at Magic Bullet Looks for applying a color theme to your work. If you use it, go easy; you don't want it to look like you did anything. A little bit goes a long ways and can really give your work a more professional and finished look.

Red Giant Software: Magic Bullet Looks 1.2

[Charles Papert]

If the storefront has plenty of windows and you light for tungsten inside, you will certainly have a mix of color temperatures that will have a good chance of looking amateurish, or "indie" as you call it, Jeremy. A possible compromise is to use 1/2 CTB on your tungsten or halogen units to give a partial correction, then white balance under this--the daylight will still be coolish but not blue per se. If there are a lot of existing fluorescents, they will read a bit warm compared to your lights but not terribly. It's usually better to allow warmer units on faces than cooler ones.

Gelling the windows is expensive and time-consuming but it solves a lot of these issues, unless the front door has to open during the scene (where the color correction would become apparent. One advantage of gelling is that you can use a combo CTO and ND gel (i.e. 85N6) that allows you to shoot towards the windows without them blowing out.

[Jim Snow]

Originally Posted by Charles Papert

One advantage of gelling is that you can use a combo CTO and ND gel (i.e. 85N6) that allows you to shoot towards the windows without them blowing out.

Good point. That blown out window look, maybe with even some lens flare, is another way to create an amateur look. I imagine there are times when you have to spend a great deal of time to make shots with challenging lighting problems look good. The bright window is one of the banes of an event videographer. In event situations, you have to shoot it like it is without the ability to setup the shot. But it gives us the ability to appreciate the work that guys like you are able to do. I was talking to a friend recently, who is a very accomplished event videographer, about lighting challenges at weddings. His advice was, "Get the faces right." But when you setup a shot, you get the faces and everything else right!

[Jeremy Smith]

Thank you for the feed back Charles and Jim,

The blown out look is something I am hoping to avoid, now that you mention it, by choosing the shots without 'much' of the windows in the picture. (We'll see, no pun intended.) I saw the ND gel mixture you mentioned, 85n6, at a web site for not an unreasonable price all together, I may consider that after some higher priority purchases are made. Thank you for the advice.

I have looked into Magic Bullet Looks for sure. I am using Sony Vegas Studio 9.0b (you can laugh, but don't point:) and MB Looks is not documented to work or be compatible with this. However, the demo operates fairly well with it, albeit some bugs every once in a while. Believe it or not, I may purchase it anyway as someday I will likely upgrade to the full Sony Vegas Pro and I am quite impressed with it.

Regarding the coolness of the color and exactly what you were both helping solve a problem for, would it be beneficial to white balance (I use a whi-bal board, its actually 18% gray but works great) with the out door light and the tungsten halogens cooled with the CTB gels inside, simply to have a nearly singular light temperature for each shot. Then, increase the warmth of the faces with the post prod. software I have available?

I agree fully, that faces and skin look more attractive, or human or natural etc. with the 'orange' tungsten lights, etc, I am just looking for as polished a look as I can and I have not had time to experiment and see.

It is apparent to me that there are tools for this kind of job that just work and that is what I am being told. However, I am always for trying to get the most out my resources. (Another thread, how to spend good money after bad...)

If I had my choice, I would buy the 85N6 stuff for all the reasons mentioned, but I have musts on the budget first, food, costumes, makeup, etc.

Thank you again for your interest and help, I do appreciate it,

Jer

[Charles Papert]

I used 85N6 as an example--that will cut 2 2/3 of a stop out of the window light, but you may want more or less depending on what time you are shooting, how the sun hits the exterior viewable outside the window etc.

In terms of your question regarding white balance, I would do so under your corrected tungsten units at the beginning of the shoot and leave it there for the duration, or until you change the lighting style (i.e. night interior, you can pull the CTB off the lights and shoot straight tungsten).

[Jeremy Smith]

Thanks Charles, I appreciate the information. Its time for me to just do it and see how polished I can get it. I certainly know more now than I did 2 weeks ago. Awesome!

Thanks again and best of success to you,

Jer