Super8 questions...

Dave Largent · January 29th, 2004, 02:02 AM

Just won another one! That makes three identical
models. This one cost me the most, though.
The seller knew more about it than the previous sellers did. He said it's in "perfect working condition" and that it "works as if it was brand new". Then he added "however, I do not have film and cannot test it
but it does work perfectly".
The reason I got three is that I've had pretty
bad luck with scambay purchases in the past.
Some "perfect" items I've ended up tossing in the garbage 5 minutes after receiving them
because they didn't work. They were probably
something the seller picked up at a rummage
sale for 50 cents. I would never buy a camcorder
through them.
There was one S8 camera that I was tempted to
bid on. The seller was in Denmark (I'm in the USA)
and he accepted payment only with a "bankers
draft in Danish kroner". I even looked into
exchange rates and where to get such a bankers
draft. The fact that he had only had two previous
transactions with ebay didn't help me to feel better
about the situation. The camera went up to
around $350 US dollars at biddings end, but the
reserve hadn't been met so it ended without a
sale.

Helen Bach · January 29th, 2004, 06:09 AM

That's a Beaulieu 6008 ebay auction that Dave gave a link to. I'd steer clear of it. I have one, and it is the second most unreliable camera I've ever owned (the winner was the 7008). I think that Beaulieu build quality went down after the 4008. If it went for $200 or so, it might be worth buying - but the starting bid is almost $1000. That's a big risk on a camera that might need very expensive repairs.

Dave,
Which cameras have you bought?

Best,
Helen

Hugh DiMauro · January 29th, 2004, 07:34 AM

Does anybody remember the Fujica ZC1000? Single 8 cartridges and a "panaflex"style mirrored shutter system that allowed 100% of the light to hit the film? In the 1970s, that camera retailed for $1,000.00. I remember pining away at it's catalog photo vividly. I asked my dad to buy it for me and his reponse was to backhand me into the following week. Does Japan still make it? Now THAT might be a fabulous camera to have. Is the film still available? Would it be cost effective to use it? I know Single-8 is just Super-8 in another style cartridge. I think. It's been so long!

Hugh DiMauro · January 29th, 2004, 07:35 AM

Does anybody remember the Fujica ZC1000? Single 8 cartridges, interchangeable lenses and a "panaflex"style mirrored shutter system that allowed 100% of the light to hit the film? In the 1970s, that camera retailed for $1,000.00. I remember pining away at it's catalog photo vividly. I asked my dad to buy it for me and his reponse was to backhand me into the following week. Does Japan still make it? Now THAT might be a fabulous camera to have. Is the film still available? Would it be cost effective to use it? I know Single-8 is just Super-8 in another style cartridge. I think. It's been so long!

Helen Bach · January 29th, 2004, 11:17 AM

Hugh,

Yes, I remember that Fujica. Lovely lens, amazing camera.

Single-8 had a few advantages over Super-8, notably the ease with which you could backwind (the only connection to the spools on a Super-8 cartridge is to the take-up spool - with Single-8 there is access to both spools) and the presence of a proper pressure plate. The film base was polyester instead of cellulose acetate, so it was thinner and stronger. This may or may not have been a good thing - if something jams when you have acetate base film in the camera, the film is likely to tear. If something jams when you have polyester base, the camera may damage itself. The polyester base allowed the cassettes to be smaller.

The frame and sprocket hole dimensions were the same on Single-8 and Super-8. Splicing Single-8 can only be done with tape because of the polyester base.

Fuji still supply colour reversal ISO 25 daylight and ISO 200 tungsten stock - not quite as wide a range as the available Super-8.

Oh, and Single-8 should not be confused with Standard-8 (aka Regular-8 or Double-8) - which shouldn't be confused with Double Super-8!

Best,
Helen

Hugh DiMauro · January 29th, 2004, 02:48 PM

You sure know your stuff. I see you are from New York. The city? I go about 4 times per year to see plays and visit B & H just to see what's what.

Federico Prieto · January 30th, 2004, 05:01 AM

Here is a link where you can find all (or near all) pictures of Super8 cameras

http://www.mondofoto.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia-index.html

Dave Largent · January 30th, 2004, 03:54 PM

Hi Helen,
Wow, you know a lot about Super 8.
You don't give up on wanting to know what kind
of cams I got, I see.
Well, seeing as I've won up what I need, I
suppose I can share now.
I got three Canon 310XLs. F/1.0, 220 degree shutter, 18 frames per second.
I just got the first one in. Everything seems to work on it, except the automatic zoom. Zooming can be
done manually, but smooth zooms manually are
very difficult, as the control is quite sensitive to
a light touch. The lens has a bit of speckling
(?fungus) and lint, but this doesn't seem to show
if the cam is not pointed near a direct light source.
Fairly quiet. Focus is difficult. Big depth of focus.
Fast-reacting auto iris. Macro focusing at 9".
Backlight correcter. All black, so looks modern.
Low-light indicator.
Not a lot of zoom capability (8mm-25mm). Over at the
Super8 forum, there were people asking the filter
size of the Canon, and some said they thought
it was 46mm, 48mm, or 49mm. I happen to be the proud owner of the Panny DV53 1CCD camcorder. On a far-off chance, I tried my DV53's wide angle converter (Canon 0.7X 43mm) on the 310XL and ... it fit! I also have a telephoto (Canon 1.7X) that will fit, too.
So I got lucky that way. With the wide on there,
I'm able to set the manual focus to 50% and
equal the widest that the cam is able to do
*without* the wide angle converter attached.
The minimum focus distance is said to be 4 feet.
Does anyone have any idea what the use of
the wide will do to the minumum focus distance?
One concern I have is that the film I have is
125 ISO and the cam only has ISO settings
of 40, 160, and 250. I've thought about setting
ISO to 250 and having the Ektachrome 125
reversal push processed one stop. Anyone know
if this will degrade the image much
compared to shooting/processing at 125 ISO?
What changes should I expect with push
processing?

Shawn Mielke · January 30th, 2004, 04:20 PM

This has been a great thread. I know next to nothing about Super8 and the better cameras currently available. Could someone point me in the right direction for cameras and online resources? Thanks very much.

Shawn Mielke · January 30th, 2004, 05:31 PM

Anyone know anything about this Russian cam?

http://www.super8filmmaking.com/s8cams.htm

It seems there are only a few S8 cameras in production.

Helen Bach · January 31st, 2004, 02:26 PM

Dave,

Sounds like a nice camera. Great low-light capability with that super-fast lens (who cares if it only goes to 25 mm? - plenty long enough!) and wide shutter.

I've never pushed VNF, but I would suspect that the grain might become excessive. You'll lose shadow detail because pushing has almost no effect on the 'film speed' in the shadows. I'd try the 160 setting - isn't it controlled by the cassette tabs anyway? Is there any over-ride?

Most wide angle converters and all tele converters I've come across are 'afocal' - ie they have no focal length or the focal length is said to be infinite - so they do not affect the focus of the primary lens except in terms of depth of field. Some wide angle converters have negative power (divergent) and these usually need to be used with macro-capable lenses because they create a virtual image close to the front of the lens. These do affect the focus range of the camera.

Best,
Helen

Richard Alvarez · January 31st, 2004, 02:39 PM

I own twelve super 8 cameras... careful, they're addictive.

A quick glance at Ebay will let you check up on which models are "hot". You can generally count on any of the high end Nizo's going for big bucks, the Canon 1012 almost always goes for more than five hundred. I own the Elmo 612xl and like it a lot. Ditto for my Sankyo em 60's. I own three minoltas... still solid after all these years. I also own a couple of regular eight bolex's. Impressive pieces of clockwork, and yes you can still get and process regular eight film.

Try your local thrift stores. When I lived in San Mateo, I regularly picked up bargains at the local shops. Never paid more than thirty dollars for cameras I have been offered several hundred for. (Ooops my secret is out)
Happy scrounging!

Dave Largent · January 31st, 2004, 02:48 PM

Helen,
Yes, it is controlled by the cassette tabs. There is
no manual override.
So you would suggest I'd be better off going with
the 160 setting (which is what the 125 cassette
will set the ISO at, according to the tabs)? What
is the effect on Ektachrome with minor underexposure?

Richard Alvarez · January 31st, 2004, 02:58 PM

Dave,
why not use a light meter and set the corret exposure yourself?

Richard

Dave Largent · January 31st, 2004, 03:33 PM

Richard,
How would you suggest I set the exposure?
There is no manual iris control.
This cam also comes in an Auto Focus model,
which uses infrared. With that model, there is
no manual focus option. I inquired about the
AF feature at a Super 8 forum and was told that
black does not emit infrared so the cam cannot focus on anything black. Also, the AF is not
"on the fly" you might say. Rather, the focus
is locked once you start shooting and can't be
changed if your subject moves from the
original position.

January 29th, 2004, 02:02 AM	#46
Dave Largent Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,483	3 for 3: Cool Just won another one! That makes three identical models. This one cost me the most, though. The seller knew more about it than the previous sellers did. He said it's in "perfect working condition" and that it "works as if it was brand new". Then he added "however, I do not have film and cannot test it but it does work perfectly". The reason I got three is that I've had pretty bad luck with scambay purchases in the past. Some "perfect" items I've ended up tossing in the garbage 5 minutes after receiving them because they didn't work. They were probably something the seller picked up at a rummage sale for 50 cents. I would never buy a camcorder through them. There was one S8 camera that I was tempted to bid on. The seller was in Denmark (I'm in the USA) and he accepted payment only with a "bankers draft in Danish kroner". I even looked into exchange rates and where to get such a bankers draft. The fact that he had only had two previous transactions with ebay didn't help me to feel better about the situation. The camera went up to around $350 US dollars at biddings end, but the reserve hadn't been met so it ended without a sale.

January 29th, 2004, 07:34 AM	#48
Hugh DiMauro Trustee Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,207	Single 8 Does anybody remember the Fujica ZC1000? Single 8 cartridges and a "panaflex"style mirrored shutter system that allowed 100% of the light to hit the film? In the 1970s, that camera retailed for $1,000.00. I remember pining away at it's catalog photo vividly. I asked my dad to buy it for me and his reponse was to backhand me into the following week. Does Japan still make it? Now THAT might be a fabulous camera to have. Is the film still available? Would it be cost effective to use it? I know Single-8 is just Super-8 in another style cartridge. I think. It's been so long!

January 29th, 2004, 07:35 AM	#49
Hugh DiMauro Trustee Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,207	Single 8 Does anybody remember the Fujica ZC1000? Single 8 cartridges, interchangeable lenses and a "panaflex"style mirrored shutter system that allowed 100% of the light to hit the film? In the 1970s, that camera retailed for $1,000.00. I remember pining away at it's catalog photo vividly. I asked my dad to buy it for me and his reponse was to backhand me into the following week. Does Japan still make it? Now THAT might be a fabulous camera to have. Is the film still available? Would it be cost effective to use it? I know Single-8 is just Super-8 in another style cartridge. I think. It's been so long!

January 29th, 2004, 02:48 PM	#51
Hugh DiMauro Trustee Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,207	Dear Helen... You sure know your stuff. I see you are from New York. The city? I go about 4 times per year to see plays and visit B & H just to see what's what.

January 30th, 2004, 05:01 AM	#52
Federico Prieto Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Caracas, Venezuela Posts: 117	Visual Encyclopedia of Super 8 Here is a link where you can find all (or near all) pictures of Super8 cameras http://www.mondofoto.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia-index.html

January 29th, 2004, 06:09 AM	#47
Helen Bach Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 120	That's a Beaulieu 6008 ebay auction that Dave gave a link to. I'd steer clear of it. I have one, and it is the second most unreliable camera I've ever owned (the winner was the 7008). I think that Beaulieu build quality went down after the 4008. If it went for $200 or so, it might be worth buying - but the starting bid is almost $1000. That's a big risk on a camera that might need very expensive repairs. Dave, Which cameras have you bought? Best, Helen

January 29th, 2004, 11:17 AM	#50
Helen Bach Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 120	Hugh, Yes, I remember that Fujica. Lovely lens, amazing camera. Single-8 had a few advantages over Super-8, notably the ease with which you could backwind (the only connection to the spools on a Super-8 cartridge is to the take-up spool - with Single-8 there is access to both spools) and the presence of a proper pressure plate. The film base was polyester instead of cellulose acetate, so it was thinner and stronger. This may or may not have been a good thing - if something jams when you have acetate base film in the camera, the film is likely to tear. If something jams when you have polyester base, the camera may damage itself. The polyester base allowed the cassettes to be smaller. The frame and sprocket hole dimensions were the same on Single-8 and Super-8. Splicing Single-8 can only be done with tape because of the polyester base. Fuji still supply colour reversal ISO 25 daylight and ISO 200 tungsten stock - not quite as wide a range as the available Super-8. Oh, and Single-8 should not be confused with Standard-8 (aka Regular-8 or Double-8) - which shouldn't be confused with Double Super-8! Best, Helen

January 30th, 2004, 03:54 PM	#53
Dave Largent Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,483	Hi Helen, Wow, you know a lot about Super 8. You don't give up on wanting to know what kind of cams I got, I see. Well, seeing as I've won up what I need, I suppose I can share now. I got three Canon 310XLs. F/1.0, 220 degree shutter, 18 frames per second. I just got the first one in. Everything seems to work on it, except the automatic zoom. Zooming can be done manually, but smooth zooms manually are very difficult, as the control is quite sensitive to a light touch. The lens has a bit of speckling (?fungus) and lint, but this doesn't seem to show if the cam is not pointed near a direct light source. Fairly quiet. Focus is difficult. Big depth of focus. Fast-reacting auto iris. Macro focusing at 9". Backlight correcter. All black, so looks modern. Low-light indicator. Not a lot of zoom capability (8mm-25mm). Over at the Super8 forum, there were people asking the filter size of the Canon, and some said they thought it was 46mm, 48mm, or 49mm. I happen to be the proud owner of the Panny DV53 1CCD camcorder. On a far-off chance, I tried my DV53's wide angle converter (Canon 0.7X 43mm) on the 310XL and ... it fit! I also have a telephoto (Canon 1.7X) that will fit, too. So I got lucky that way. With the wide on there, I'm able to set the manual focus to 50% and equal the widest that the cam is able to do without the wide angle converter attached. The minimum focus distance is said to be 4 feet. Does anyone have any idea what the use of the wide will do to the minumum focus distance? One concern I have is that the film I have is 125 ISO and the cam only has ISO settings of 40, 160, and 250. I've thought about setting ISO to 250 and having the Ektachrome 125 reversal push processed one stop. Anyone know if this will degrade the image much compared to shooting/processing at 125 ISO? What changes should I expect with push processing?

January 30th, 2004, 04:20 PM	#54
Shawn Mielke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, California Posts: 745	This has been a great thread. I know next to nothing about Super8 and the better cameras currently available. Could someone point me in the right direction for cameras and online resources? Thanks very much. __________________ Breakthrough In Grey Room

January 30th, 2004, 05:31 PM	#55
Shawn Mielke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, California Posts: 745	Anyone know anything about this Russian cam? http://www.super8filmmaking.com/s8cams.htm It seems there are only a few S8 cameras in production. __________________ Breakthrough In Grey Room

January 31st, 2004, 02:26 PM	#56
Helen Bach Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 120	Dave, Sounds like a nice camera. Great low-light capability with that super-fast lens (who cares if it only goes to 25 mm? - plenty long enough!) and wide shutter. I've never pushed VNF, but I would suspect that the grain might become excessive. You'll lose shadow detail because pushing has almost no effect on the 'film speed' in the shadows. I'd try the 160 setting - isn't it controlled by the cassette tabs anyway? Is there any over-ride? Most wide angle converters and all tele converters I've come across are 'afocal' - ie they have no focal length or the focal length is said to be infinite - so they do not affect the focus of the primary lens except in terms of depth of field. Some wide angle converters have negative power (divergent) and these usually need to be used with macro-capable lenses because they create a virtual image close to the front of the lens. These do affect the focus range of the camera. Best, Helen

January 31st, 2004, 02:39 PM	#57
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	I own twelve super 8 cameras... careful, they're addictive. A quick glance at Ebay will let you check up on which models are "hot". You can generally count on any of the high end Nizo's going for big bucks, the Canon 1012 almost always goes for more than five hundred. I own the Elmo 612xl and like it a lot. Ditto for my Sankyo em 60's. I own three minoltas... still solid after all these years. I also own a couple of regular eight bolex's. Impressive pieces of clockwork, and yes you can still get and process regular eight film. Try your local thrift stores. When I lived in San Mateo, I regularly picked up bargains at the local shops. Never paid more than thirty dollars for cameras I have been offered several hundred for. (Ooops my secret is out) Happy scrounging!

January 31st, 2004, 02:48 PM	#58
Dave Largent Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,483	Helen, Yes, it is controlled by the cassette tabs. There is no manual override. So you would suggest I'd be better off going with the 160 setting (which is what the 125 cassette will set the ISO at, according to the tabs)? What is the effect on Ektachrome with minor underexposure?

January 31st, 2004, 02:58 PM	#59
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Dave, why not use a light meter and set the corret exposure yourself? Richard

January 31st, 2004, 03:33 PM	#60
Dave Largent Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,483	Richard, How would you suggest I set the exposure? There is no manual iris control. This cam also comes in an Auto Focus model, which uses infrared. With that model, there is no manual focus option. I inquired about the AF feature at a Super 8 forum and was told that black does not emit infrared so the cam cannot focus on anything black. Also, the AF is not "on the fly" you might say. Rather, the focus is locked once you start shooting and can't be changed if your subject moves from the original position.