24fps vs. 30fps

John Jackman · November 19th, 2003, 09:47 PM

This is a red herring in most of these discussions - unless you are specifically discussion projection only. In most cases, what we are really talking about is the look of 35mm that has been telecine'd. That does not flash at 48 hertz -- and as a matter of fact telecine'd 24p is 2/5ths interlaced. :)

Jan Crittenden Livingston · November 20th, 2003, 07:22 AM

John Jackman wrote:

>The VariCam always records in 60i,

Hi John,

Jan Crittenden from Panasonic here. The Varicam always records in 60P, that is 720/60P. this is a High Definition standard.

>but the CCD is operated at the chosen frame rate -- the cam does not "select" frames from 60fps for recording.

This is true, the camera develops the right pull down from the capture rate to write to 60 progressive images, unlike the DVX and the SDX which are 480/60i cameras that also take progressive pics.

Hope that clarifies,

Jan

John Jackman · November 20th, 2003, 10:25 PM

Whoops, you're right -- I was thinking of both the DVX100 (always records at 60i std DV) and the VariCam at the same time while writing --

But the real point here is that the CCD operates at the selected frame rate, it doesn't "select" or drop frames from 60 to derive 24p.

How you doing, Jan? I'll miss DV Expo this year, will be on a shoot in Minnesota. Hope the show is great --

Jan Crittenden Livingston · November 21st, 2003, 04:25 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by John Jackman : Whoops, you're right -- I was thinking of both the DVX100 (always records at 60i std DV) and the VariCam at the same time while writing --

I kind of figured it was a lapse as I would have sworn you knew this. ;-)

But the real point here is that the CCD operates at the selected frame rate, it doesn't "select" or drop frames from 60 to derive 24p.

Right the camera is dialed into the frame rate and the pulldown is performed with flags identifying the key frames.

How you doing, Jan? I'll miss DV Expo this year, will be on a shoot in Minnesota. Hope the show is great

I am doing great, keeping busy. Sorry you won't make it. See you at NAB then.

Best regards,

Jan

Glenn Gipson · November 21st, 2003, 03:46 PM

30p is no good for the PAL market or Film transfers. If you shoot on 30p, then you are shooting down your potential profits.

Jan Crittenden Livingston · November 21st, 2003, 05:28 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : 30p is no good for the PAL market or Film transfers. If you shoot on 30p, then you are shooting down your potential profits. -->>>

Hi Glen,
I don't follow your comment. We were talking about 24P production, not 30P. While all of the cameras can do 30P, it would have a different aplication, like TV in the US. or a mild slow mo in a 24P timeline. So somewhere I disconnected from your point. Did I miss something?

Best regards,

jan

Glenn Gipson · November 21st, 2003, 09:16 PM

Jan, since the tittle of the post was 24p vs. 30p, I was simply giving my opinion on 30p. For me, the issue of whether or not to shoot on 24p or 30p boils down to distribution options, and 30p is limited in this regards.

John Jackman · November 21st, 2003, 10:20 PM

Glenn, your point is correct -- many PAL countries are very unforgiving about NTSC-originated footage. If you may distribute in Europe, there is a strong argument to be made for shooting in PAL or 24p.

Marcus van Bavel at www.DVfilm.com has an interesting piece of software -- Atlantis -- that converts PAL SD to deinterlaced NTSC with 3:2 pulldown. Only place I've heard of this approach for converting PAL.

Jan Crittenden Livingston · November 22nd, 2003, 05:27 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : Jan, since the tittle of the post was 24p vs. 30p, I was simply giving my opinion on 30p.
Hi Glenn,

Thanks for the clarification, I was looking at your response as a response to something that I had written. I understand and yes, I agree, 30P is mostly valid as a final master in NTSC countries.

Best regards,

Jan

Robert Silvers · December 27th, 2003, 07:27 PM

We associate 24 with drama and 60 with news/reality and low production values (soap operas). This is partly because of what we are used to, but also because the dreamlike 24 speed makes our mind make up more information. I think this is similar to how you can read a book and 'see' a vivid image but watch a soap opera and be shocked back to an all-too-literal reality. I would not pick 60fps for drama but I would pick 30fps for it.

Did you ever wonder why it is easier to make an artistic photo with black and white film? This is not because our mind associates 'art' with black and white -- but rather because we do not interpret it literally! While it is certainly possible to make an artistic photo in color, it is MUCH harder. Likewise, you can make an art film at 60fps, but it would have to have more going for it for people to accept it.

There were some films shot in 30fps (was it Oklahoma?) and people were amazed and called it better. For this reason, I personally would shoot at 30p now unless I wanted to either match film or go out to film. And I would use 60i or 60p for news and sports.

Jonathan Stanley · January 5th, 2004, 12:11 AM

This kinda applies to this discussion...what about this scenario:

I am shooting a commercial with my XL1s this week. The product will be aired on standard tv's throughout the region. I will film on mini-dv, and have it transfered to betacam sp to submit to the station.

It is a commercial for a medical practice, so i dont want it to feel harsh, making me think that frame mode is a better option.

Thoughts?

Robert Silvers · January 5th, 2004, 12:28 AM

I am having terrific luck with using VirtualDub and some deinterlace filters. If I were doing it I would shoot it in interlace and then decide later.

Did you check if the station accepts mini-dv? If so, I would submit in both formats, with BetaSP as a backup to cover yourself but mini DV will look better (I mean in the sense it is not a copy).

Jonathan Stanley · January 5th, 2004, 01:01 AM

I am actually submitting it to them on mini-dv, and they are going to transfer to betacam for me (isnt that nice of them). i am assuming their equipment requires betacam sp, and thats why they are transferring.

November 19th, 2003, 09:47 PM	#46
John Jackman Great DV dot com Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lewisville, NC Posts: 78	This is a red herring in most of these discussions - unless you are specifically discussion projection only. In most cases, what we are really talking about is the look of 35mm that has been telecine'd. That does not flash at 48 hertz -- and as a matter of fact telecine'd 24p is 2/5ths interlaced. :) __________________ John Jackman www.johnjackman.com

November 20th, 2003, 10:25 PM	#48
John Jackman Great DV dot com Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lewisville, NC Posts: 78	Whoops, you're right -- I was thinking of both the DVX100 (always records at 60i std DV) and the VariCam at the same time while writing -- But the real point here is that the CCD operates at the selected frame rate, it doesn't "select" or drop frames from 60 to derive 24p. How you doing, Jan? I'll miss DV Expo this year, will be on a shoot in Minnesota. Hope the show is great -- __________________ John Jackman www.johnjackman.com

November 21st, 2003, 10:20 PM	#53
John Jackman Great DV dot com Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lewisville, NC Posts: 78	Glenn, your point is correct -- many PAL countries are very unforgiving about NTSC-originated footage. If you may distribute in Europe, there is a strong argument to be made for shooting in PAL or 24p. Marcus van Bavel at www.DVfilm.com has an interesting piece of software -- Atlantis -- that converts PAL SD to deinterlaced NTSC with 3:2 pulldown. Only place I've heard of this approach for converting PAL. __________________ John Jackman www.johnjackman.com

November 20th, 2003, 07:22 AM	#47
Jan Crittenden Livingston Panasonic Broadcast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Secaucus, NJ 07094 Posts: 271	John Jackman wrote: >The VariCam always records in 60i, Hi John, Jan Crittenden from Panasonic here. The Varicam always records in 60P, that is 720/60P. this is a High Definition standard. >but the CCD is operated at the chosen frame rate -- the cam does not "select" frames from 60fps for recording. This is true, the camera develops the right pull down from the capture rate to write to 60 progressive images, unlike the DVX and the SDX which are 480/60i cameras that also take progressive pics. Hope that clarifies, Jan

November 21st, 2003, 04:25 AM	#49
Jan Crittenden Livingston Panasonic Broadcast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Secaucus, NJ 07094 Posts: 271	<<<-- Originally posted by John Jackman : Whoops, you're right -- I was thinking of both the DVX100 (always records at 60i std DV) and the VariCam at the same time while writing -- I kind of figured it was a lapse as I would have sworn you knew this. ;-) But the real point here is that the CCD operates at the selected frame rate, it doesn't "select" or drop frames from 60 to derive 24p. Right the camera is dialed into the frame rate and the pulldown is performed with flags identifying the key frames. How you doing, Jan? I'll miss DV Expo this year, will be on a shoot in Minnesota. Hope the show is great I am doing great, keeping busy. Sorry you won't make it. See you at NAB then. Best regards, Jan

November 21st, 2003, 03:46 PM	#50
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	30p is no good for the PAL market or Film transfers. If you shoot on 30p, then you are shooting down your potential profits.

November 21st, 2003, 05:28 PM	#51
Jan Crittenden Livingston Panasonic Broadcast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Secaucus, NJ 07094 Posts: 271	<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : 30p is no good for the PAL market or Film transfers. If you shoot on 30p, then you are shooting down your potential profits. -->>> Hi Glen, I don't follow your comment. We were talking about 24P production, not 30P. While all of the cameras can do 30P, it would have a different aplication, like TV in the US. or a mild slow mo in a 24P timeline. So somewhere I disconnected from your point. Did I miss something? Best regards, jan

November 21st, 2003, 09:16 PM	#52
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	Jan, since the tittle of the post was 24p vs. 30p, I was simply giving my opinion on 30p. For me, the issue of whether or not to shoot on 24p or 30p boils down to distribution options, and 30p is limited in this regards.

November 22nd, 2003, 05:27 AM	#54
Jan Crittenden Livingston Panasonic Broadcast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Secaucus, NJ 07094 Posts: 271	<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : Jan, since the tittle of the post was 24p vs. 30p, I was simply giving my opinion on 30p. Hi Glenn, Thanks for the clarification, I was looking at your response as a response to something that I had written. I understand and yes, I agree, 30P is mostly valid as a final master in NTSC countries. Best regards, Jan

December 27th, 2003, 07:27 PM	#55
Robert Silvers Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 64	We associate 24 with drama and 60 with news/reality and low production values (soap operas). This is partly because of what we are used to, but also because the dreamlike 24 speed makes our mind make up more information. I think this is similar to how you can read a book and 'see' a vivid image but watch a soap opera and be shocked back to an all-too-literal reality. I would not pick 60fps for drama but I would pick 30fps for it. Did you ever wonder why it is easier to make an artistic photo with black and white film? This is not because our mind associates 'art' with black and white -- but rather because we do not interpret it literally! While it is certainly possible to make an artistic photo in color, it is MUCH harder. Likewise, you can make an art film at 60fps, but it would have to have more going for it for people to accept it. There were some films shot in 30fps (was it Oklahoma?) and people were amazed and called it better. For this reason, I personally would shoot at 30p now unless I wanted to either match film or go out to film. And I would use 60i or 60p for news and sports.

January 5th, 2004, 12:11 AM	#56
Jonathan Stanley Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Boone, NC Posts: 115	This kinda applies to this discussion...what about this scenario: I am shooting a commercial with my XL1s this week. The product will be aired on standard tv's throughout the region. I will film on mini-dv, and have it transfered to betacam sp to submit to the station. It is a commercial for a medical practice, so i dont want it to feel harsh, making me think that frame mode is a better option. Thoughts?

January 5th, 2004, 12:28 AM	#57
Robert Silvers Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 64	I am having terrific luck with using VirtualDub and some deinterlace filters. If I were doing it I would shoot it in interlace and then decide later. Did you check if the station accepts mini-dv? If so, I would submit in both formats, with BetaSP as a backup to cover yourself but mini DV will look better (I mean in the sense it is not a copy).

January 5th, 2004, 01:01 AM	#58
Jonathan Stanley Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Boone, NC Posts: 115	I am actually submitting it to them on mini-dv, and they are going to transfer to betacam for me (isnt that nice of them). i am assuming their equipment requires betacam sp, and thats why they are transferring.