Yet more thoughts on the Mini 35, DoF, film look...

Josh Bass · May 28th, 2003, 10:28 AM

Yes, frame mode is a wonderful thing.

Rob Lohman · May 30th, 2003, 06:40 AM

Charles: I think 25 vs. 24 fps is a non-issue. I can't see how any-
one could see the difference between that purely on framerates.
Ofcourse a lot of other things might be different, but if that is
the only one I don't think it is a visible difference....

Zac Stein · May 30th, 2003, 07:13 AM

Rob, the nature of PAL and NTSC does show a world of difference to the trained eye. (if we talking dv cameras)

One thing is the way colour and chroma is displayed just has a different look to it, also the pull down is huge for people who are used to pal.

In my opinion, PAL is a superiour system, but everything comes down to quality of source. If you have a kick ass clean NTSC source and handle it correctly it is going to look fantastic regardless if it was NTSC.

Zac

P.s ohh and the 50hz thing has become a bit of a non issue, around 70% of tv's here, well anything not stupid cheap, runs at 100hz now, because the pulldown is 2/2, they just convert it to 4/4, smooth as glass.

Rob Lohman · May 30th, 2003, 07:16 AM

I agree with you Zac. I wasn't trying to compare PAL & NTSC,
just frame rate differences (NTSC isn't 24 fps ofcourse). Like
if you were able to switch my 25 fps PAL camera to a 24 fps
PAL camera, would I see the difference? I don't think so...

Justin Chin · May 30th, 2003, 07:02 PM

Well, Charles knows where I stand. I am glad he posted his opinions. I do agree, that last bit of "strobe" in a 180 degree shutter is very desirable. I'm going to see if a PAL XL1s and a standard NTSC XL1s might do the trick. Frame and No Frame. Still trying to find the best of both worlds. I'll keep everyone updated as soon as I can. Right now I'm putting all my time into the Varicam and a Pro35.

BUT I'm more of a fan of the DOF. It makes shooting a lot easier, no need to compensate for the sharpness of a video image. And the areas that are in focus on the mini35 are VERY SHARP.

Personal Velocity made extensive use of a fog machine. I recomend all video shooters to have one in their kit. It helps greatly with interiors. Better than using a pro mist IMHO.

Charles Papert · May 31st, 2003, 02:14 AM

Mmm, the fog machine can indeed be a good tool. I used one on one of my Instant Films (Hollywood & Valentine, I'm too lazy to post the specific link!!) and I mostly liked the results.

The only thing I have to say is that a little goes a long way--the most effective atmosphere is created by well-dispersed fog that is heavier in the background than the foreground, and just squirting a fogger from nearby camera won't necessarily net you this result. You need to waft it, keep an eye on the density and make sure it matches from shot to shot, otherwise you will be doing a big dance in post to equalize the look. We didn't have a skilled fog wrangler on the abovementioned short, and even though I loved the look for certain shots, it's too much in others & I was too busy with other details to notice at the time.

The moral is--it's a solid, usefull tool but I wouldn't recommend going nuts with it, or you'll end up with something that looks like a cheesy 80's music video.

Justin Chin · May 31st, 2003, 11:19 AM

Agreed, Charles. As always a handywork of an artist and a good eye can make a huge difference.

Rick Spilman · May 31st, 2003, 11:48 AM

I recommended this in another post and at the risk of being tedious I'll do it again. If you haven't rented the DVD of Personal Velocity run, don't walk to your local video rental store. The scene by scene commentary by the DP, Ellas Kuras, and the gaffer, John Nadeau is great. Watching the movie is optional.

Kuras has lots of experience in film as well as DV. She was Spike Lee's DP on Bamboozled which was shot with TRV900s and VX1000s. For Personal Velocity they decided early on to use a lot of close-ups. It fit the sensibility of script but also the limitations of DV. Kuras found that wide shots in Bamboozled just didn't hold up when transfered to film. By zooming in she could also get shallower DOFs. She said that she always shot with some sort of diffusion filter on the lens and did use smoke to add depth to several scenes. The movie was shot with two cameras, so they had to work to block the shots so that they didn't run into each other or shoot the lights. Using two cameras and DV let them shoot longer and let the actors give all they had to a scene. The second and third takes tended to be mostly shooting cut-aways and "riskier" shots once they got what they needed on the first take or so. They shot the entire movie in seventeen days, often at three or four locations a day.

The most interesting thing that I came away with after listening to the commentary was the sense that DV is a flexible and capable medium. It can do things that you cannot do on film. DV also has significant limitations. The trick is to focus on doing what DV does really well and shoot to minimize its limitations. Of course that is what directors and DPs have been doing with film for the last hundred or so years.

OK, I'll stop blathering now. The DV is definately worth renting.

Justin Chin · May 31st, 2003, 11:53 AM

Here is an online interview with Ellen:

http://www.uemedia.com/CPC/article_6007.shtml

Kevin Burnfield · June 2nd, 2003, 11:42 AM

Justin, THANKS for that article.

I had heard a couple of other folks (might have been you) mention the film but I haven't had a chance to get to see it.

I just ordered it on-line (www.deepdiscountdvd.com seems to have the best price-- unless one of DV Info's sponsors sell it ) and I'm heading out in a little while to rent it and check it out.

The stuff she talks about in the article are things we talk about all the time and some ideas it sounds like she's taken a little further.

great stuff. thanks again!

OH, and the link to the trailer from the article is kinda clunky--- here's the link to the nice, large Quicktime one:

http://www.apple.com/trailers/mgm/pe...ity/large.html

Rick Spilman · June 2nd, 2003, 12:41 PM

I think I am in love with Ellen Kuras.

Well, OK, maybe not. Sounds like a fascinating lady.

Kevin Burnfield · June 2nd, 2003, 01:09 PM

She's been on that "Up-and-coming" list among DPs for a while now with her work on BLOW and SUMMER OF SAM.

She really pushes the limits with stuff liek cross-process, different silver retentions in film stocks, desaturation process and other amazing techniques...

I sent the link for the trailer over to my DP who knew all about her.

Rick Spilman · June 2nd, 2003, 01:39 PM

I laughed when I read that this was the third time she had won "Best Cinematography" at Sundance. A very savy lady indeed.

Kevin Burnfield · June 5th, 2003, 03:14 PM

I've had a bad week and have been swamped with work so I've had very little time to watch PERSONAL VELOCITY but I did watch the entire Parker Posey (#2 GRETA) story and have listened to the commentary. (Hey, I like Parker Posey and once met her... yes, she's even cutier in person.. I made sure the three were independent of each other before jumping in and to be honest that scene at the dining table that pretty much starts off the first story left me ready for something else)

WOW... they use a hell of a lot of background diffusion. The opening master shot in this story is interesting when they are in the kitchen and beyond the stove is diffused but the stove and foreground is sharp.

I can see that they used an assortment of filters on the footage but from what I've seen and from what I'm gathering they DID NOT do a lot of Post Production 'film look' work on the footage.

I'm going to go back tonight and watch it through from stem to stern and then start over again with the commentary.

Thanks again, Jus for pointing this out to us.

Martin Munthe · June 9th, 2003, 12:23 PM

Justin Chin wrote: "Personal Velocity made extensive use of a fog machine. I recomend all video shooters to have one in their kit. It helps greatly with interiors. Better than using a pro mist IMHO."

Yes. A cracker can help a lot. I shot this using a 16x9 converter on a 16x9 faux PD150. I would say the smoke brings an illusion of short DoF that is really not there in the optics.
http://www.campslaughter.com/images2/6b.jpg
http://www.campslaughter.com/images2/7b.jpg

May 28th, 2003, 10:28 AM	#16
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Yes, frame mode is a wonderful thing. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

May 30th, 2003, 06:40 AM	#17
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Charles: I think 25 vs. 24 fps is a non-issue. I can't see how any- one could see the difference between that purely on framerates. Ofcourse a lot of other things might be different, but if that is the only one I don't think it is a visible difference.... __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

May 30th, 2003, 07:16 AM	#19
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I agree with you Zac. I wasn't trying to compare PAL & NTSC, just frame rate differences (NTSC isn't 24 fps ofcourse). Like if you were able to switch my 25 fps PAL camera to a 24 fps PAL camera, would I see the difference? I don't think so... __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

May 30th, 2003, 07:02 PM	#20
Justin Chin Major Player Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 227	Well, Charles knows where I stand. I am glad he posted his opinions. I do agree, that last bit of "strobe" in a 180 degree shutter is very desirable. I'm going to see if a PAL XL1s and a standard NTSC XL1s might do the trick. Frame and No Frame. Still trying to find the best of both worlds. I'll keep everyone updated as soon as I can. Right now I'm putting all my time into the Varicam and a Pro35. BUT I'm more of a fan of the DOF. It makes shooting a lot easier, no need to compensate for the sharpness of a video image. And the areas that are in focus on the mini35 are VERY SHARP. Personal Velocity made extensive use of a fog machine. I recomend all video shooters to have one in their kit. It helps greatly with interiors. Better than using a pro mist IMHO. __________________ justin www.monsterrocket.com Filmmaker \| Cinematographer

May 31st, 2003, 02:14 AM	#21
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Mmm, the fog machine can indeed be a good tool. I used one on one of my Instant Films (Hollywood & Valentine, I'm too lazy to post the specific link!!) and I mostly liked the results. The only thing I have to say is that a little goes a long way--the most effective atmosphere is created by well-dispersed fog that is heavier in the background than the foreground, and just squirting a fogger from nearby camera won't necessarily net you this result. You need to waft it, keep an eye on the density and make sure it matches from shot to shot, otherwise you will be doing a big dance in post to equalize the look. We didn't have a skilled fog wrangler on the abovementioned short, and even though I loved the look for certain shots, it's too much in others & I was too busy with other details to notice at the time. The moral is--it's a solid, usefull tool but I wouldn't recommend going nuts with it, or you'll end up with something that looks like a cheesy 80's music video. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

May 30th, 2003, 07:13 AM	#18
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	Rob, the nature of PAL and NTSC does show a world of difference to the trained eye. (if we talking dv cameras) One thing is the way colour and chroma is displayed just has a different look to it, also the pull down is huge for people who are used to pal. In my opinion, PAL is a superiour system, but everything comes down to quality of source. If you have a kick ass clean NTSC source and handle it correctly it is going to look fantastic regardless if it was NTSC. Zac P.s ohh and the 50hz thing has become a bit of a non issue, around 70% of tv's here, well anything not stupid cheap, runs at 100hz now, because the pulldown is 2/2, they just convert it to 4/4, smooth as glass.

May 31st, 2003, 11:19 AM	#22
Justin Chin Major Player Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 227	Agreed, Charles. As always a handywork of an artist and a good eye can make a huge difference. __________________ justin www.monsterrocket.com Filmmaker \| Cinematographer

May 31st, 2003, 11:48 AM	#23
Rick Spilman Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Jersey City, NJ Posts: 366	I recommended this in another post and at the risk of being tedious I'll do it again. If you haven't rented the DVD of Personal Velocity run, don't walk to your local video rental store. The scene by scene commentary by the DP, Ellas Kuras, and the gaffer, John Nadeau is great. Watching the movie is optional. Kuras has lots of experience in film as well as DV. She was Spike Lee's DP on Bamboozled which was shot with TRV900s and VX1000s. For Personal Velocity they decided early on to use a lot of close-ups. It fit the sensibility of script but also the limitations of DV. Kuras found that wide shots in Bamboozled just didn't hold up when transfered to film. By zooming in she could also get shallower DOFs. She said that she always shot with some sort of diffusion filter on the lens and did use smoke to add depth to several scenes. The movie was shot with two cameras, so they had to work to block the shots so that they didn't run into each other or shoot the lights. Using two cameras and DV let them shoot longer and let the actors give all they had to a scene. The second and third takes tended to be mostly shooting cut-aways and "riskier" shots once they got what they needed on the first take or so. They shot the entire movie in seventeen days, often at three or four locations a day. The most interesting thing that I came away with after listening to the commentary was the sense that DV is a flexible and capable medium. It can do things that you cannot do on film. DV also has significant limitations. The trick is to focus on doing what DV does really well and shoot to minimize its limitations. Of course that is what directors and DPs have been doing with film for the last hundred or so years. OK, I'll stop blathering now. The DV is definately worth renting.

May 31st, 2003, 11:53 AM	#24
Justin Chin Major Player Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 227	Here is an online interview with Ellen: http://www.uemedia.com/CPC/article_6007.shtml __________________ justin www.monsterrocket.com Filmmaker \| Cinematographer

June 2nd, 2003, 11:42 AM	#25
Kevin Burnfield Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ Posts: 363	Justin, THANKS for that article. I had heard a couple of other folks (might have been you) mention the film but I haven't had a chance to get to see it. I just ordered it on-line (www.deepdiscountdvd.com seems to have the best price-- unless one of DV Info's sponsors sell it ) and I'm heading out in a little while to rent it and check it out. The stuff she talks about in the article are things we talk about all the time and some ideas it sounds like she's taken a little further. great stuff. thanks again! OH, and the link to the trailer from the article is kinda clunky--- here's the link to the nice, large Quicktime one: http://www.apple.com/trailers/mgm/pe...ity/large.html

June 2nd, 2003, 12:41 PM	#26
Rick Spilman Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Jersey City, NJ Posts: 366	I think I am in love with Ellen Kuras. Well, OK, maybe not. Sounds like a fascinating lady.

June 2nd, 2003, 01:09 PM	#27
Kevin Burnfield Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ Posts: 363	She's been on that "Up-and-coming" list among DPs for a while now with her work on BLOW and SUMMER OF SAM. She really pushes the limits with stuff liek cross-process, different silver retentions in film stocks, desaturation process and other amazing techniques... I sent the link for the trailer over to my DP who knew all about her.

June 2nd, 2003, 01:39 PM	#28
Rick Spilman Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Jersey City, NJ Posts: 366	I laughed when I read that this was the third time she had won "Best Cinematography" at Sundance. A very savy lady indeed.

June 5th, 2003, 03:14 PM	#29
Kevin Burnfield Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ Posts: 363	I've had a bad week and have been swamped with work so I've had very little time to watch PERSONAL VELOCITY but I did watch the entire Parker Posey (#2 GRETA) story and have listened to the commentary. (Hey, I like Parker Posey and once met her... yes, she's even cutier in person.. I made sure the three were independent of each other before jumping in and to be honest that scene at the dining table that pretty much starts off the first story left me ready for something else) WOW... they use a hell of a lot of background diffusion. The opening master shot in this story is interesting when they are in the kitchen and beyond the stove is diffused but the stove and foreground is sharp. I can see that they used an assortment of filters on the footage but from what I've seen and from what I'm gathering they DID NOT do a lot of Post Production 'film look' work on the footage. I'm going to go back tonight and watch it through from stem to stern and then start over again with the commentary. Thanks again, Jus for pointing this out to us.

June 9th, 2003, 12:23 PM	#30
Martin Munthe Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 331	Justin Chin wrote: "Personal Velocity made extensive use of a fog machine. I recomend all video shooters to have one in their kit. It helps greatly with interiors. Better than using a pro mist IMHO." Yes. A cracker can help a lot. I shot this using a 16x9 converter on a 16x9 faux PD150. I would say the smoke brings an illusion of short DoF that is really not there in the optics. http://www.campslaughter.com/images2/6b.jpg http://www.campslaughter.com/images2/7b.jpg __________________ Martin Munthe VFX Supervisor/DP/Director