Two Clips: Prep For Film Look With Mini-DV

Dean Sensui · June 16th, 2003, 02:45 PM

Martin...

Impressive work!

Dean Sensui
Base Two Productions

Martin Munthe · June 17th, 2003, 03:16 AM

John. The black and white promist settings in MB is optional. I use it because my story dictates a dark, dreamlike quality. In other things I work with there is no diffusion at all. I suspect alot of people use diffusion because they think it looks cool - and then it most of the time looks bad. I would say MB does very little to your footage if you want it to. But enough to make it more organic. The strength of it is that you can make light react in a more organic way than the camcorder actually captured the source. This is the greatest limitations in camcorders versus shooting on film. And just to add some facts: most of the diffusion in my stills is not produced using MB (I only use very little black to bring down some of the noise generated by the PD150) but using After Effects standard plugins.

The worst way of using MB is by only using presets. To use it well you have to be skilled in AE.

IMHO: A cinematographer today has to know everything about digital grading. The grading process is much more attached to the creative work of the DP now then it was in the days of film to film.

And a small but funny note: The typical black promist preset in ver. 1.1 of MB has the description; "Why?". I think that says something about what The Orphanage thinks of the way most people use MB ;)

Federico Prieto · June 17th, 2003, 04:42 AM

..."The worst way of using MB is by only using presets. To use it well you have to be skilled in AE."...

Hello Martin.....I'm sure that you are 100% right. Could be very interesting for us (the newies) if you can show to us a practical example - some like a tut- about how are you using MB for a determinate "film look" effect...

cheers

FP

Zac Stein · June 17th, 2003, 04:58 AM

I would think anyone who has spent the 3k on getting magic bullet and AE would pretty much want to know how to use it properly anyways...

Zac

John Threat · June 17th, 2003, 05:44 AM

Actuallly i meant, that a lot of the settings make it look like a pro black mist filter was placed on it, not the actual preset setting.

I love filters, but the pro black mist is not a favorite.

I like ND's polarizers, gold and silver, bursts, Graduated ND's are my favorite although a bit overused for a second, will be back with a fresh look.

Actually the title of this thread is prep for film look, which meant that those clips are test of a style of shooting that will be preped to be run thru Magic Bullet.

I think you have a point about using smoke to add the sense of a shallow depth of field to large areas, especially if they aren't that bright, but if there is enough room to move the camera far enough , you can get a nice shallow depth of field with just the default lens.

This has been debated countless times, but I think because so much film material is ends up on televisions, and watched on NTSC screens, that 24 fps isn't the killer. It's shallow depth of field, lighting and maybe gamma. Only people in the field will be able to tell the difference on some footage even before it goes to Magic Bullet.

Martin Munthe · June 17th, 2003, 07:51 AM

Federico: Perhaps I'll make a tutorail in the future. Right now I'm drowning in work. If everything was realtime I wouldn't have time to debate in forums. My posting occur when I'm looking at some sort of progress bar in the background ;)

Zac: I usually spend the budget of MB and AE on a single music video shooting s-16 and developing and doing telecine. So I payaed for the tools years ago. I used to spend fortunes on renting Avid systems. Nowadays I spend it on FCP upgrades only.

John: I think your footage has all the potential in the world. And I think 30p looks more like film projected in a theatre than 24p. Projected film has every frame projected twice (almost) using a shutter on the projector. This is to remove some of the flickering that progressive footage has. I agree that black pro mist is over used. But it works on evening out low light noise if you set it to 1.

John Threat · June 17th, 2003, 09:23 PM

Well you must do a lot of waiting if you are rendering with Magic Bullet. That's when my posting goes on an upswing, during editing periods such as these.

How are you moving your footage over to AE/MB for processings? Quick Time Referrence? automatic duck? Are you breaking it up into 10 Minute segements to processes?

By my reckoning 10 Minutes comes it at about 30 hours of rendering average time with Magic Bullet which should be just shy of the 2GB filesize limit.

June 17th, 2003, 03:16 AM	#17
Martin Munthe Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 331	John. The black and white promist settings in MB is optional. I use it because my story dictates a dark, dreamlike quality. In other things I work with there is no diffusion at all. I suspect alot of people use diffusion because they think it looks cool - and then it most of the time looks bad. I would say MB does very little to your footage if you want it to. But enough to make it more organic. The strength of it is that you can make light react in a more organic way than the camcorder actually captured the source. This is the greatest limitations in camcorders versus shooting on film. And just to add some facts: most of the diffusion in my stills is not produced using MB (I only use very little black to bring down some of the noise generated by the PD150) but using After Effects standard plugins. The worst way of using MB is by only using presets. To use it well you have to be skilled in AE. IMHO: A cinematographer today has to know everything about digital grading. The grading process is much more attached to the creative work of the DP now then it was in the days of film to film. And a small but funny note: The typical black promist preset in ver. 1.1 of MB has the description; "Why?". I think that says something about what The Orphanage thinks of the way most people use MB ;) __________________ Martin Munthe VFX Supervisor/DP/Director

June 17th, 2003, 07:51 AM	#21
Martin Munthe Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 331	Federico: Perhaps I'll make a tutorail in the future. Right now I'm drowning in work. If everything was realtime I wouldn't have time to debate in forums. My posting occur when I'm looking at some sort of progress bar in the background ;) Zac: I usually spend the budget of MB and AE on a single music video shooting s-16 and developing and doing telecine. So I payaed for the tools years ago. I used to spend fortunes on renting Avid systems. Nowadays I spend it on FCP upgrades only. John: I think your footage has all the potential in the world. And I think 30p looks more like film projected in a theatre than 24p. Projected film has every frame projected twice (almost) using a shutter on the projector. This is to remove some of the flickering that progressive footage has. I agree that black pro mist is over used. But it works on evening out low light noise if you set it to 1. __________________ Martin Munthe VFX Supervisor/DP/Director

June 16th, 2003, 02:45 PM	#16
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	Martin... Impressive work! Dean Sensui Base Two Productions

June 17th, 2003, 04:42 AM	#18
Federico Prieto Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Caracas, Venezuela Posts: 117	..."The worst way of using MB is by only using presets. To use it well you have to be skilled in AE."... Hello Martin.....I'm sure that you are 100% right. Could be very interesting for us (the newies) if you can show to us a practical example - some like a tut- about how are you using MB for a determinate "film look" effect... cheers FP

June 17th, 2003, 04:58 AM	#19
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	I would think anyone who has spent the 3k on getting magic bullet and AE would pretty much want to know how to use it properly anyways... Zac

June 17th, 2003, 05:44 AM	#20
John Threat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York Posts: 322	Actuallly i meant, that a lot of the settings make it look like a pro black mist filter was placed on it, not the actual preset setting. I love filters, but the pro black mist is not a favorite. I like ND's polarizers, gold and silver, bursts, Graduated ND's are my favorite although a bit overused for a second, will be back with a fresh look. Actually the title of this thread is prep for film look, which meant that those clips are test of a style of shooting that will be preped to be run thru Magic Bullet. I think you have a point about using smoke to add the sense of a shallow depth of field to large areas, especially if they aren't that bright, but if there is enough room to move the camera far enough , you can get a nice shallow depth of field with just the default lens. This has been debated countless times, but I think because so much film material is ends up on televisions, and watched on NTSC screens, that 24 fps isn't the killer. It's shallow depth of field, lighting and maybe gamma. Only people in the field will be able to tell the difference on some footage even before it goes to Magic Bullet.

June 17th, 2003, 09:23 PM	#22
John Threat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York Posts: 322	Well you must do a lot of waiting if you are rendering with Magic Bullet. That's when my posting goes on an upswing, during editing periods such as these. How are you moving your footage over to AE/MB for processings? Quick Time Referrence? automatic duck? Are you breaking it up into 10 Minute segements to processes? By my reckoning 10 Minutes comes it at about 30 hours of rendering average time with Magic Bullet which should be just shy of the 2GB filesize limit.