copyright warning

Paul Tauger · May 16th, 2003, 05:01 PM

Jeff, I really don't know the answer to this, as it's outside the area of IP law in which I usually practice, i.e. copyright I know (though not in the specific context of film/video production), licensing, not so much.

Jeff Donald · May 16th, 2003, 05:19 PM

If I was a wedding videographer, I would contact an IP attorney and get a clear view of your usage and the necessary rights you would need to purchase. Rick might be correct, in that a separate license would be needed to reproduce copies.

I also found ASCAP, BMI and Harry Fox Agency to be very helpful (I'm sure they all wanted my money). But Harry Fox Agency was very concerned that I purchase the proper license, even though they couldn't sell it to me.

My personal opinion is wedding and event videographers have a way to stay within the confines of current copyright laws and not totally alienate the B & G. Would they have to pay additional fees? Yes, and I would pass them on to the client by offering them a choice. Sure I can use that song, but it'll cost you $30 (hypothetical fee) for the license, or you can pick from these CD's that have free music on them (Buy Out music). If the song is that important to the B & G the cost will be insignificant.

Roze Ann · May 16th, 2003, 08:46 PM

So Paul...what town do you frequent for "cocktail hour"...I'M BUYING!!! Yup...you've just saved me a (excuse the language) a 'butt load' of potential grief and unnecessary worry over this whole music issue. I'm good friends with several local atty's...will get their advice on an IP person. So where can I send ya some green :-) You're a "cheap date" ...can ya 'feel the luv' hee hee hee. No seriously at the very LEAST I should buy ya a beer. OK folks everyone chip in. Let's keep this fella swimmin' in happiness. Let me know where to send the booze fund :-) Thanks & God Bless! Roze

Paul Tauger · May 16th, 2003, 09:29 PM

Thanks for the offer, Roze, but no contributions are necessary. I'm in Southern California, but from time to time I do get out to North Carolina (I got my MFA at UNCG). Maybe sometime you can buy me that drink. ;)

Paul Young · May 17th, 2003, 12:16 AM

So since it is not legal to pull music from a clients CD into a video, a potential "what if"

What if you brought the client in on the last day of editing w/ his/her CD's and have the client sit @ your computer and "enable" the audio track w/ all of their music (that you've already layed out). This way, the client, who may have legal recourse to "copy" the music is the one doing it, not the videographer.

Of course the AHRA is vauge about copying for personal use onto video AND this would theoretically (in my mind) put the liability onto the client (which would need to be clearly explained) - but would this be a possible solution?

Trying to find a happy medium

Paul

Jeff Donald · May 17th, 2003, 05:33 AM

Your not charging anything for this video are you? Using your equipment, in your studio, mixing it to a pre-existing program, doesn?t exactly sound like a home recording. I think you're reaching and your scenario offers little, if any protection.

Roze Ann · May 17th, 2003, 09:12 PM

Paul you've got a deal brother. Let me know via email (ezor7@yahoo.com) a few days before you head this way next time. Then I can figure out a schedule and buy ya that drink. And 'hey' if you make it this way over the summer you could possibly make it in time for a serious cajun crawfish boil in our "yankee" NC back yard (tee hee). I'm from Baton Rouge, LA and everything north of I-10 is *officially* (wink) yankee country lol. Thanks again for all your help and clarifications. Talk soon & God Bless, Roze

Akos Szemenyei · May 17th, 2003, 09:56 PM

A very good job Paul, I just shot a wedding as favour for a friend and happy to report, that I didn't violate the copyright laws.

If I show up in southern Californa, I'll buy you a beer as well.

Sam Houchins II · July 18th, 2003, 10:45 AM

Sorry if everyone's tired of this subject, but I thought the recent phone call I finally had with a human at Harry Fox's client relations division (where i'd been directed to inquire about obtaining a sync license) was the break in the case needed. Summarized, he explained:

>Mechanical license is not required. Mechanical license only applies to music-only copies of recordings like making / distributing CD's, tapes, records, etc.
>Synchronization is what applies here, syncing music/song to video/images.
>Sync licenses are only obtained through direct negotiations with the publisher(s). There are no fee structures, they can charge anything they want. There can even be four publishers involved for one song. All have to be contacted, all have to agree. One can say $1 per tape, another $40 each, another say $1000 flat fee, another can say no. It also takes alot of lead time to get any answer.
>Here's the kicker... he says that for ten or fewer copies of the same video, NO license is required IF the clients (bride and groom) provide the song from their own purchased copy of the song. If you provide the song from your own pool of music, you need a sync. license.
>Showing a love story synched with the client's music at the reception is ok, no license req'd.
>He agrees this has not been proven in courts nor written in stone, but is generally accepted as the standard. He says it is an oft asked question.
>He even likened it to compiling a cd for someone else. Charging for time and material to do that is also legal as long as the client provides the music and that music's been legally obtained (purchased and owned, not "shared" from downloading, etc.) and is for that client's use. He gave as example companies (in general, not specific names) that provide that very service (music only) operating in legal parameters without mechanical licenses, applying the fair use (personal) concept.

Rick Spilman · July 18th, 2003, 03:25 PM

Thank you Sam. Great to hear some actual real world commentary. I've heard the same information from other videographers who have discussed it with the Harry Fox Agency. Nice to have a confirmation.

Rick

Peter Jefferson · July 19th, 2003, 10:34 AM

any aussies interested in doing the right thing can contat abia/apra
licenses are relatively cheap but its been a while since ive been in touch with them...

as for copyright, heres a q to those who think its irrelevant to Weddings...

If your client (bride and groom) only wanted 1 copy on dvd, it is blatantly obvious that they will duplicate it.

Now, there is no stopping this from happening regardless of what copyright notices you put on your DVD...

But how would you feel about losing hundreds of dollars because your client doesnt want you to do it for them? Obviously if they decide to dup eit themselves, YOURE not getting paid...

How would you feel after filming and editing for 60+ hours, someone jsut comes along and duplicates your work and not pay any extra for it?

You wouldnt...

same goes with music... I come from an Audio Production background and i wouldnt want someone using my music without my permission. I dont care about the money coz the music is my love, but its the fact that somoeone has taken the time to at least ASK me to use my material which i created...

see how it goes around in a circle?
If everyone does the right thing, it can be a fun merry go round, but if people want to run a business by doing illegal shit it will be an awful spiral of legalities...

Sam Houchins II · July 19th, 2003, 01:39 PM

That's exactly how I feel here in the US. Unfortunately, for some reason, the system does not seem to be set up for the small time sync licenses here in the US, and the license brokers themselves have given the ok for <=10 copies.
I believe Paul stated that he has even made suggestions and inquiries for an avenue for wedding videographers to be able to get licenses, but he said they weren't interested. I totally agree with your concept, Peter, but again, apparently they're not worried about 10 or less. I ranted myself on the side of the copyright holder in a thread where I was asking about sources of music, but all that seems to be set aside now that they've told me they don't care up to that limit.

Paul Young · July 20th, 2003, 02:33 AM

Sure would be nice if that policy was published in writing and all the interested parties who would be suing videographers would sign off on it...

John Locke · July 20th, 2003, 02:41 AM

Paul,

You have a beer permanently in the fridge here waiting for your next trip to Tokyo. You deserve about 10 refrigerators full of beer from each of us for all the information you pass our way. Thanks!

Hope you like Kirin!

Mathew Evan · March 27th, 2004, 01:41 AM

BUMP!

Interesting thread.

Most of you guys talking don't have a clue as to what its like in the trenches (ie wedding video).

The issue is basically the same as it is in the military regarding gays: Don't ask, don't tell.

Since we're talking about business here and not artist's rights (like some of you are trying to make an issue of) the RIAA is more focused on those college students illegally uploading thousands of copywrited songs a minute on campuses across the country. Are you so out of touch to think that the RIAA even cares about Wedding Videography? If anything it's a blip on their radar and most of them probably have seen wedding videos with copywrited music and never thought twice about it.

Bottom line: using copywrited music on wedding videos is not a form of infringement that hurts record sales. If it did we would of seen some lawsuits by now.

May 16th, 2003, 05:19 PM	#47
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	If I was a wedding videographer, I would contact an IP attorney and get a clear view of your usage and the necessary rights you would need to purchase. Rick might be correct, in that a separate license would be needed to reproduce copies. I also found ASCAP, BMI and Harry Fox Agency to be very helpful (I'm sure they all wanted my money). But Harry Fox Agency was very concerned that I purchase the proper license, even though they couldn't sell it to me. My personal opinion is wedding and event videographers have a way to stay within the confines of current copyright laws and not totally alienate the B & G. Would they have to pay additional fees? Yes, and I would pass them on to the client by offering them a choice. Sure I can use that song, but it'll cost you $30 (hypothetical fee) for the license, or you can pick from these CD's that have free music on them (Buy Out music). If the song is that important to the B & G the cost will be insignificant. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

May 16th, 2003, 08:46 PM	#48
Roze Ann Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 116	Where is your fav bar? So Paul...what town do you frequent for "cocktail hour"...I'M BUYING!!! Yup...you've just saved me a (excuse the language) a 'butt load' of potential grief and unnecessary worry over this whole music issue. I'm good friends with several local atty's...will get their advice on an IP person. So where can I send ya some green :-) You're a "cheap date" ...can ya 'feel the luv' hee hee hee. No seriously at the very LEAST I should buy ya a beer. OK folks everyone chip in. Let's keep this fella swimmin' in happiness. Let me know where to send the booze fund :-) Thanks & God Bless! Roze

May 17th, 2003, 12:16 AM	#50
Paul Young Tourist Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 4	A "What if" So since it is not legal to pull music from a clients CD into a video, a potential "what if" What if you brought the client in on the last day of editing w/ his/her CD's and have the client sit @ your computer and "enable" the audio track w/ all of their music (that you've already layed out). This way, the client, who may have legal recourse to "copy" the music is the one doing it, not the videographer. Of course the AHRA is vauge about copying for personal use onto video AND this would theoretically (in my mind) put the liability onto the client (which would need to be clearly explained) - but would this be a possible solution? Trying to find a happy medium Paul

May 17th, 2003, 05:33 AM	#51
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Your not charging anything for this video are you? Using your equipment, in your studio, mixing it to a pre-existing program, doesn?t exactly sound like a home recording. I think you're reaching and your scenario offers little, if any protection. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

May 17th, 2003, 09:12 PM	#52
Roze Ann Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 116	You got it! Paul you've got a deal brother. Let me know via email (ezor7@yahoo.com) a few days before you head this way next time. Then I can figure out a schedule and buy ya that drink. And 'hey' if you make it this way over the summer you could possibly make it in time for a serious cajun crawfish boil in our "yankee" NC back yard (tee hee). I'm from Baton Rouge, LA and everything north of I-10 is officially (wink) yankee country lol. Thanks again for all your help and clarifications. Talk soon & God Bless, Roze

May 16th, 2003, 05:01 PM	#46
Paul Tauger Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Los Angeles (recently from San Francisco) Posts: 954	Jeff, I really don't know the answer to this, as it's outside the area of IP law in which I usually practice, i.e. copyright I know (though not in the specific context of film/video production), licensing, not so much.

May 16th, 2003, 09:29 PM	#49
Paul Tauger Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Los Angeles (recently from San Francisco) Posts: 954	Thanks for the offer, Roze, but no contributions are necessary. I'm in Southern California, but from time to time I do get out to North Carolina (I got my MFA at UNCG). Maybe sometime you can buy me that drink. ;)

May 17th, 2003, 09:56 PM	#53
Akos Szemenyei Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Saitama, Japan Posts: 111	A very good job Paul, I just shot a wedding as favour for a friend and happy to report, that I didn't violate the copyright laws. If I show up in southern Californa, I'll buy you a beer as well.

July 18th, 2003, 10:45 AM	#54
Sam Houchins II Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Fredericksburg, VA Posts: 282	a Harry Fox rep.'s answer... Sorry if everyone's tired of this subject, but I thought the recent phone call I finally had with a human at Harry Fox's client relations division (where i'd been directed to inquire about obtaining a sync license) was the break in the case needed. Summarized, he explained: >Mechanical license is not required. Mechanical license only applies to music-only copies of recordings like making / distributing CD's, tapes, records, etc. >Synchronization is what applies here, syncing music/song to video/images. >Sync licenses are only obtained through direct negotiations with the publisher(s). There are no fee structures, they can charge anything they want. There can even be four publishers involved for one song. All have to be contacted, all have to agree. One can say $1 per tape, another $40 each, another say $1000 flat fee, another can say no. It also takes alot of lead time to get any answer. >Here's the kicker... he says that for ten or fewer copies of the same video, NO license is required IF the clients (bride and groom) provide the song from their own purchased copy of the song. If you provide the song from your own pool of music, you need a sync. license. >Showing a love story synched with the client's music at the reception is ok, no license req'd. >He agrees this has not been proven in courts nor written in stone, but is generally accepted as the standard. He says it is an oft asked question. >He even likened it to compiling a cd for someone else. Charging for time and material to do that is also legal as long as the client provides the music and that music's been legally obtained (purchased and owned, not "shared" from downloading, etc.) and is for that client's use. He gave as example companies (in general, not specific names) that provide that very service (music only) operating in legal parameters without mechanical licenses, applying the fair use (personal) concept.

July 18th, 2003, 03:25 PM	#55
Rick Spilman Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Jersey City, NJ Posts: 366	Thank you Sam. Great to hear some actual real world commentary. I've heard the same information from other videographers who have discussed it with the Harry Fox Agency. Nice to have a confirmation. Rick

July 19th, 2003, 10:34 AM	#56
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	any aussies interested in doing the right thing can contat abia/apra licenses are relatively cheap but its been a while since ive been in touch with them... as for copyright, heres a q to those who think its irrelevant to Weddings... If your client (bride and groom) only wanted 1 copy on dvd, it is blatantly obvious that they will duplicate it. Now, there is no stopping this from happening regardless of what copyright notices you put on your DVD... But how would you feel about losing hundreds of dollars because your client doesnt want you to do it for them? Obviously if they decide to dup eit themselves, YOURE not getting paid... How would you feel after filming and editing for 60+ hours, someone jsut comes along and duplicates your work and not pay any extra for it? You wouldnt... same goes with music... I come from an Audio Production background and i wouldnt want someone using my music without my permission. I dont care about the money coz the music is my love, but its the fact that somoeone has taken the time to at least ASK me to use my material which i created... see how it goes around in a circle? If everyone does the right thing, it can be a fun merry go round, but if people want to run a business by doing illegal shit it will be an awful spiral of legalities...

July 19th, 2003, 01:39 PM	#57
Sam Houchins II Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Fredericksburg, VA Posts: 282	re: Aussie option That's exactly how I feel here in the US. Unfortunately, for some reason, the system does not seem to be set up for the small time sync licenses here in the US, and the license brokers themselves have given the ok for <=10 copies. I believe Paul stated that he has even made suggestions and inquiries for an avenue for wedding videographers to be able to get licenses, but he said they weren't interested. I totally agree with your concept, Peter, but again, apparently they're not worried about 10 or less. I ranted myself on the side of the copyright holder in a thread where I was asking about sources of music, but all that seems to be set aside now that they've told me they don't care up to that limit.

July 20th, 2003, 02:33 AM	#58
Paul Young Tourist Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 4	Sure would be nice if that policy was published in writing and all the interested parties who would be suing videographers would sign off on it...

July 20th, 2003, 02:41 AM	#59
John Locke Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Austin, TX USA Posts: 2,882	Paul, You have a beer permanently in the fridge here waiting for your next trip to Tokyo. You deserve about 10 refrigerators full of beer from each of us for all the information you pass our way. Thanks! Hope you like Kirin! __________________ John Locke SursumFilms.com

March 27th, 2004, 01:41 AM	#60
Mathew Evan Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: United States Posts: 53	BUMP! Interesting thread. Most of you guys talking don't have a clue as to what its like in the trenches (ie wedding video). The issue is basically the same as it is in the military regarding gays: Don't ask, don't tell. Since we're talking about business here and not artist's rights (like some of you are trying to make an issue of) the RIAA is more focused on those college students illegally uploading thousands of copywrited songs a minute on campuses across the country. Are you so out of touch to think that the RIAA even cares about Wedding Videography? If anything it's a blip on their radar and most of them probably have seen wedding videos with copywrited music and never thought twice about it. Bottom line: using copywrited music on wedding videos is not a form of infringement that hurts record sales. If it did we would of seen some lawsuits by now.