Filming of illegal activities

Eric James · January 13th, 2006, 05:19 PM

Lawyer it is!

thx,
Eric

Chris Barcellos · January 13th, 2006, 07:41 PM

Eric:

When you brought up the issue, as an attorney, all I can see is the potential problems you could be in. We see worst case scenarios. Like I could imagine you working with someone who trespasses to do his skate routine. So you go into the property, and a security guard is there. Your guy is railing it on a hand rail and runs smack into security guard. He dies. A manslaughter case arises, including you due to your part in the planning of the illegal entry. Wham, you are in court. Maybe you get off, maybe you don't. No matter what you are out a lot of cash to defend. Maybe you end up doing time, maybe not....

And if your boarder himself gets killed or severely injured, maybe you have criminal liability issues there, as well as exposure to a civil law suit.

This the type of thing we see happening all the time, and we worry about as attorneys when a question like this gets asked..

Chris Barcellos

Eric James · January 13th, 2006, 11:30 PM

Hey Chris,
Thank you very much for your posts. I have never really looked into those types of scenarios before. They really could happen, and I see that now. Is it worth the risk? Looks like I'll have to decide.

-Eric

Brian Duke · January 13th, 2006, 11:59 PM

I got one thing to say about it all... Jenny Jones...

Figure out how you could easily be associated with any crime. Its like documenting AND paying a killer to kill while you follow him. Now that may be extreme, but the principal applies. You don't think you would have an "guilty by association" slapped on you?

James Emory · January 14th, 2006, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch

It has been many years since I was a cop in California, but I still remember one thing. Conspiracy to commit a “Misdemeanor” is a “FELONY!” Don’t do it.

That is priceless and is now going into my signature!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric James

Hey guys,

Alright so I wasn't going to post what it was I am filming but I figure if this thread is already evidence then it doesn't matter.

So what's so horrible that I might be put in jail for conspiracy?

SKATEBOARDING!

Now I'm really glad that I didn't say what I would be filming at first so that I could see all the current responses.

Does this change anything?

Just reading these posts with all of these advisors and lawyers was keeping me in suspense and then to find out that it was just skateboarding! HAHAHAHAHA! LMFAO!!!!

Eric, the following is a perfect example of what you are trying to do and how the producers get around being an accessory, contributor or whatever. I worked on the show Intervention that currently airs each Sunday on A&E. This show is all about people with terrible addictions whether it's eating disorders, alcohol or drugs. As we all know, pocessing and using narcotics is ILLEGAL. So, how does a show actually record these people doing these hard drugs like crack, cocaine, heroin, marijuana and other prescription narcotics without being associated with breaking the law? None of it can be proven to be that actual drug being used at the time! How do we know it's marijuana that person is smoking on camera, or cocaine they're sniffing or heroin in that syringe, we don't! So the producers say. This was a concern of mine too, being liable. I mean, a participant could easily say that a producer or camera operator asked them or directed them to use an illegal drug for dramatic puposes and then you are in a world of sh!t! Believe me, they wouldn't have done this if their lawyers hadn't cleared them first. As serious as it is, lucky for me the episode I worked on was about an eating disorder.

James Emory · January 14th, 2006, 01:54 AM

Is there not a difference in observing/recording criminal activity from a distance or covertly close and being embedded with them but not participating in the criminal acts?

Chris Barcellos · January 14th, 2006, 02:21 AM

This was more than imbedded reporting. Eric was talking about financing the trips to where the activity was going to occur. That is a critical element. Much different than just filming the addict doing his thing.

Chris Barcellos

James Emory · January 14th, 2006, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

This was more than imbedded reporting. Eric was talking about financing the trips to where the activity was going to occur. That is a critical element. Much different than just filming the addict doing his thing.

Chris Barcellos

Okay. Admittedly, I just scanned through the posts and didn't read too many details. I would say that would not be good.

Dave Perry · January 14th, 2006, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric James

My questions are:
Can our footage be taken?
Can we get in trouble for aiding and abetting?
Can the authorities use the footage against the subjects?
How can news stations film illegal activities (riots etc..) without putting there cameramen at risk. If the footage is evidence of crimes, you'd be making a target out of the camera man. This of war zones or the LA riots.

No brainer here...don't set your self up.

Don Donatello · January 14th, 2006, 04:10 PM

Can our footage be taken?
YES
Can we get in trouble for aiding and abetting?
YES
Can the authorities use the footage against the subjects?
YES
How can news stations film illegal activities (riots etc..) without putting there cameramen at risk.

their cameraman are at risk of being HURT by the persons in riots .. they are reporting NEWS so they go to where the news is (they didn't bring, create, pay the rioters) ..and YES News stations video tapes can be used against persons in the riots ..

now if your "persons" handed you a video tape of what ever they do ???

it all comes down to the "illegal activity " .. skateboarding =don't worry ..
taping a persons jumping off building with shute = don't worry (unless they land on a persons and kill em and you paid them to jump ) ...

Adam Bray · February 1st, 2006, 06:55 PM

I thought he was talking about paying homeless bums to fight each other or something. LOL

Nick Hiltgen · February 4th, 2006, 10:56 PM

What's the old punk bumper sticker "skateboarding's not a crime"?

What I'm curious about is why it's illegal, I assume it's because of the location but it seems really irresponsible of a production company to pay skateboarders to skate somewhere and not rent the location, and here's the thing if it's a place that's so recognizable as to not let the skaters go there, then when the video is aired, and it's obvious they were tresspassing illegally, I believe the location would have a legitimate law suit.

For example, yo go to say the ballagio in vegas and film your stuff there, do a trick off the roulette table whatever, some how you allude the bellagio security (you wouldn't) and you publish the video, if it's recognizable enough that they were there, then the ballagio would have a suit against the company that released it and potentially anyone involved. I guess I don't understand why you would take all of that risk when you could just rent the location. So in my opinion the fact that skateboarding is the "crime" you're talking about does change, because then the only real crime you face is trespassing which can be fixed with a phone call and possibly some cash.

If the production company you're working for is too cheap to pay for the rights or even inquire about renting a location I hope you're getting paid up front if you do the job.

I'm not a lawyer nor do I want to be one, my advice is purely that of a concerned citizen and fellow film maker, the advice given is worth everypenny charged.

Jeff Miller · February 6th, 2006, 12:19 PM

I love video and skateboarding but sadly most society doesn't like either. A couple years ago in Canada a kid was skating in a public park, he was arrested, fined, and jailed. Now this kid has a crime record, can't be hired and owes state (territory?) a heap of money, his life is basically ruined because he was good at railslides.

OTOH, every time a commercial plane taxis after landing and every *(&^%% passenger is standing up and placing cell calls before reaching the gate, they are violating FAA regulations.

If I had to guess it's easier to feel productive having collared a pack of "rowdy destructive hoodlums" then to deal with boom cars, spam email, or corporate crime.

The futility is that unless you have a lawyer there to direct your shoot and make sure you don't pay for tape or Gatorade by accident, you are breaking the law no matter what. Even if your lawyer says you are ok and you get busted, then the prosecutor just gets a better lawyer then yours, you lose, your in the clink.
If a 1980's Bam Margera thought like we are talking, then today he'd be rolling burritos at Taco Bell. He kind of got in at a good time for this but the point remains. I won't tell you tape something illegal, but you'll never start a revolution with your hands safely in your pockets. Where would we be if Rosa Parks followed the rules?

Keith Loh · February 6th, 2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Miller

I love video and skateboarding but sadly most society doesn't like either. A couple years ago in Canada a kid was skating in a public park, he was arrested, fined, and jailed. Now this kid has a crime record, can't be hired and owes state (territory?) a heap of money, his life is basically ruined because he was good at railslides.

Can you provide details on this case? Because...

If he really was 'a kid' his record is wiped clean when he becomes an adult.

Having a misdemeanour is not the same thing as having a felony in Canada. You can get a pardon for things like that.

What is 'a heap of money' exactly? What kind of damage would the kid have to do in order to owe a heap of money?

Jeff Miller · February 6th, 2006, 01:26 PM

Ooof, it was a case from some years ago, I'll try to find it.

I apologize up front for my writing style since I relate to odd precepts, but in my book even 21yo or thereabout is still "a kid" and while tens of thousands of dollars might not mean much to us corporate salary sticks that is truly a "heap of money" to an unemployable "kid".

The details are hazing but IIRC he was grinding on curbs and such in a public area. Not really a park, more like a commons-type area. I think it was more a concern of him being a hazard rather then damaging things.

January 13th, 2006, 07:41 PM	#17
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Working with law breakers Eric: When you brought up the issue, as an attorney, all I can see is the potential problems you could be in. We see worst case scenarios. Like I could imagine you working with someone who trespasses to do his skate routine. So you go into the property, and a security guard is there. Your guy is railing it on a hand rail and runs smack into security guard. He dies. A manslaughter case arises, including you due to your part in the planning of the illegal entry. Wham, you are in court. Maybe you get off, maybe you don't. No matter what you are out a lot of cash to defend. Maybe you end up doing time, maybe not.... And if your boarder himself gets killed or severely injured, maybe you have criminal liability issues there, as well as exposure to a civil law suit. This the type of thing we see happening all the time, and we worry about as attorneys when a question like this gets asked.. Chris Barcellos

January 14th, 2006, 02:21 AM	#22
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	More than just imbedded This was more than imbedded reporting. Eric was talking about financing the trips to where the activity was going to occur. That is a critical element. Much different than just filming the addict doing his thing. Chris Barcellos

February 4th, 2006, 10:56 PM	#27
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	What's the old punk bumper sticker "skateboarding's not a crime"? What I'm curious about is why it's illegal, I assume it's because of the location but it seems really irresponsible of a production company to pay skateboarders to skate somewhere and not rent the location, and here's the thing if it's a place that's so recognizable as to not let the skaters go there, then when the video is aired, and it's obvious they were tresspassing illegally, I believe the location would have a legitimate law suit. For example, yo go to say the ballagio in vegas and film your stuff there, do a trick off the roulette table whatever, some how you allude the bellagio security (you wouldn't) and you publish the video, if it's recognizable enough that they were there, then the ballagio would have a suit against the company that released it and potentially anyone involved. I guess I don't understand why you would take all of that risk when you could just rent the location. So in my opinion the fact that skateboarding is the "crime" you're talking about does change, because then the only real crime you face is trespassing which can be fixed with a phone call and possibly some cash. If the production company you're working for is too cheap to pay for the rights or even inquire about renting a location I hope you're getting paid up front if you do the job. I'm not a lawyer nor do I want to be one, my advice is purely that of a concerned citizen and fellow film maker, the advice given is worth everypenny charged. __________________ I have a dream that one day canon will release a 35mm ef to xl adapter and I'll have iris control and a 35mm dof of all my ef lenses, and it will be awesome...

February 6th, 2006, 12:19 PM	#28
Jeff Miller Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: St Louis, MO Posts: 227	I love video and skateboarding but sadly most society doesn't like either. A couple years ago in Canada a kid was skating in a public park, he was arrested, fined, and jailed. Now this kid has a crime record, can't be hired and owes state (territory?) a heap of money, his life is basically ruined because he was good at railslides. OTOH, every time a commercial plane taxis after landing and every *(&^%% passenger is standing up and placing cell calls before reaching the gate, they are violating FAA regulations. If I had to guess it's easier to feel productive having collared a pack of "rowdy destructive hoodlums" then to deal with boom cars, spam email, or corporate crime. The futility is that unless you have a lawyer there to direct your shoot and make sure you don't pay for tape or Gatorade by accident, you are breaking the law no matter what. Even if your lawyer says you are ok and you get busted, then the prosecutor just gets a better lawyer then yours, you lose, your in the clink. If a 1980's Bam Margera thought like we are talking, then today he'd be rolling burritos at Taco Bell. He kind of got in at a good time for this but the point remains. I won't tell you tape something illegal, but you'll never start a revolution with your hands safely in your pockets. Where would we be if Rosa Parks followed the rules? __________________ (insert long list of expensive stuff)

February 6th, 2006, 01:26 PM	#30
Jeff Miller Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: St Louis, MO Posts: 227	Ooof, it was a case from some years ago, I'll try to find it. I apologize up front for my writing style since I relate to odd precepts, but in my book even 21yo or thereabout is still "a kid" and while tens of thousands of dollars might not mean much to us corporate salary sticks that is truly a "heap of money" to an unemployable "kid". The details are hazing but IIRC he was grinding on curbs and such in a public area. Not really a park, more like a commons-type area. I think it was more a concern of him being a hazard rather then damaging things. __________________ (insert long list of expensive stuff)

January 13th, 2006, 05:19 PM	#16
Eric James Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 126	Lawyer it is! thx, Eric

January 13th, 2006, 11:30 PM	#18
Eric James Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 126	Hey Chris, Thank you very much for your posts. I have never really looked into those types of scenarios before. They really could happen, and I see that now. Is it worth the risk? Looks like I'll have to decide. -Eric

January 13th, 2006, 11:59 PM	#19
Brian Duke Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Hollywood, California Posts: 899	I got one thing to say about it all... Jenny Jones... Figure out how you could easily be associated with any crime. Its like documenting AND paying a killer to kill while you follow him. Now that may be extreme, but the principal applies. You don't think you would have an "guilty by association" slapped on you?

January 14th, 2006, 01:54 AM	#21
James Emory Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,892	Is there not a difference in observing/recording criminal activity from a distance or covertly close and being embedded with them but not participating in the criminal acts?

January 14th, 2006, 04:10 PM	#25
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	Can our footage be taken? YES Can we get in trouble for aiding and abetting? YES Can the authorities use the footage against the subjects? YES How can news stations film illegal activities (riots etc..) without putting there cameramen at risk. their cameraman are at risk of being HURT by the persons in riots .. they are reporting NEWS so they go to where the news is (they didn't bring, create, pay the rioters) ..and YES News stations video tapes can be used against persons in the riots .. now if your "persons" handed you a video tape of what ever they do ??? it all comes down to the "illegal activity " .. skateboarding =don't worry .. taping a persons jumping off building with shute = don't worry (unless they land on a persons and kill em and you paid them to jump ) ...

February 1st, 2006, 06:55 PM	#26
Adam Bray Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Houston/Austin Posts: 394	I thought he was talking about paying homeless bums to fight each other or something. LOL