Music licencing?

Bryan Spinelli · December 3rd, 2004, 03:45 PM

Does anyone have a quick answer on a need to license music recorded by an on-camera mic? I realize if I overdub any copyrighted music it needs to be fully licensed, but i'm not clear on if my camera mic picks up copyrighted music the DJ is playing at a reception if I need to license that as well, or is there a legal way around that?

Thanks for any insite.

Bryan

Bob Costa · December 4th, 2004, 09:30 AM

I think if you ask 10 lawyers you could get 20 different opinions. After watching all the debates on several forums over the last couple of months, the practical answer (for me) is that I am going to not worry about it if it is incidental to the video. Room background while interviewing or even shooting dancers is just not something any lawyer is ever gonna waste time on, unless they are prsecuting the DJ and need evidence. If the whole video is of dance after dance, then the music is NOT incidental and needs to be cleared.

I have the same problem when shooting street fairs and music festivals. The grey area is a lot blacker (to me) when the band on-stage is the focus of the visual. I have not decided on my course of action yet.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · December 4th, 2004, 09:44 AM

I don't think this CAN be generally answered.

What was the intent of the videographer?
Was he focused on the music when he/she edited?
Is the music an integral part of the video?

I know this came up with Muzak somewhere once, but it was settled or dropped before going all the way. A corporate training product had Muzak from the company's office system in it.

I'm not a lawyer, but personally, I think it would challenging for any copyright holder to demonstrate damages if it was ancillary music that is not focused upon, not edited to, and not captured in a clean, deliberate manner ie; from a mixer board to cam vs cam mic.

But whadda I know.

Dennis Vogel · December 8th, 2004, 03:17 PM

I love these threads. I really do. You can learn so much from the people who have gone before. Quite often the lessons they learned were learned the hard way and that makes them all the more valuable. Nothing like first hand experience.

When it comes to music for videos I like to tell people if they can't find free music that suits them they should just do it themselves. With Acid, ound Forge and program like it and the easy availability of low cost keyboards you can make your own music. Sure, it won't be trivial but you'll have fun and learn something while you're doing it. And you'll never have to worry about those fuzzy edges of the copyright law. It might not be as good as your favorite artist but you'll certainly be able to sleep at night as Douglas says.

Good luck.

Dennis

Graham Jones · December 19th, 2004, 02:25 PM

'It's actually a question I've ALWAYS wondered about and could never really get a straight answer. To respond to your claim that now I am worried NOW about getting caught that couldn't be further from the truth. I have always been aware that I needed a clear answer but was unable to get one.'

Google's been poised to help you for years. Five minutes work.

Paul Tauger · December 20th, 2004, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Richard Alvarez :The notion that "I am just small potatoes... no one is going to sue me for syncing their music to a wedding video/ kids soccer game/ Xtreme sport video ..." is probably statisticaly accurate, but why stand in a thunderstorm holding a lightning rod?

And, not to continue beating this dead horse, but I _routinely_ sue de minimus infringers on behalf of my client. There are all sorts of sound business reasons for doing so, e.g. preserving the integrity of the IP, sending a message to potential infringers, etc. I always tell my clients, "IP infringement suits are NOT profit centers -- if the value of the IP exceeds the cost of the litigation, then it is worth suing."

Paul Tauger · December 20th, 2004, 05:15 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Spinelli : Does anyone have a quick answer on a need to license music recorded by an on-camera mic? I realize if I overdub any copyrighted music it needs to be fully licensed, but i'm not clear on if my camera mic picks up copyrighted music the DJ is playing at a reception if I need to license that as well, or is there a legal way around that?

Thanks for any insite.

Bryan -->>>
Do a search on my name and incidental reproduction. The law is NOT clear but the cases suggest the following:

Use parts of a work for a news or non-commercial purpose, it _may_ be fair use.

Use an entire work for a non-news or commercial purpose, it will _not_ be fair use.

December 4th, 2004, 09:44 AM	#18
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	I don't think this CAN be generally answered. What was the intent of the videographer? Was he focused on the music when he/she edited? Is the music an integral part of the video? I know this came up with Muzak somewhere once, but it was settled or dropped before going all the way. A corporate training product had Muzak from the company's office system in it. I'm not a lawyer, but personally, I think it would challenging for any copyright holder to demonstrate damages if it was ancillary music that is not focused upon, not edited to, and not captured in a clean, deliberate manner ie; from a mixer board to cam vs cam mic. But whadda I know. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

December 19th, 2004, 02:25 PM	#20
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	'It's actually a question I've ALWAYS wondered about and could never really get a straight answer. To respond to your claim that now I am worried NOW about getting caught that couldn't be further from the truth. I have always been aware that I needed a clear answer but was unable to get one.' Google's been poised to help you for years. Five minutes work. __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

December 3rd, 2004, 03:45 PM	#16
Bryan Spinelli New Boot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 14	Does anyone have a quick answer on a need to license music recorded by an on-camera mic? I realize if I overdub any copyrighted music it needs to be fully licensed, but i'm not clear on if my camera mic picks up copyrighted music the DJ is playing at a reception if I need to license that as well, or is there a legal way around that? Thanks for any insite. Bryan

December 4th, 2004, 09:30 AM	#17
Bob Costa Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Venice, FL Posts: 850	I think if you ask 10 lawyers you could get 20 different opinions. After watching all the debates on several forums over the last couple of months, the practical answer (for me) is that I am going to not worry about it if it is incidental to the video. Room background while interviewing or even shooting dancers is just not something any lawyer is ever gonna waste time on, unless they are prsecuting the DJ and need evidence. If the whole video is of dance after dance, then the music is NOT incidental and needs to be cleared. I have the same problem when shooting street fairs and music festivals. The grey area is a lot blacker (to me) when the band on-stage is the focus of the visual. I have not decided on my course of action yet.

December 8th, 2004, 03:17 PM	#19
Dennis Vogel Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 409	I love these threads. I really do. You can learn so much from the people who have gone before. Quite often the lessons they learned were learned the hard way and that makes them all the more valuable. Nothing like first hand experience. When it comes to music for videos I like to tell people if they can't find free music that suits them they should just do it themselves. With Acid, ound Forge and program like it and the easy availability of low cost keyboards you can make your own music. Sure, it won't be trivial but you'll have fun and learn something while you're doing it. And you'll never have to worry about those fuzzy edges of the copyright law. It might not be as good as your favorite artist but you'll certainly be able to sleep at night as Douglas says. Good luck. Dennis

December 20th, 2004, 05:15 PM	#22
Paul Tauger Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Los Angeles (recently from San Francisco) Posts: 954	<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Spinelli : Does anyone have a quick answer on a need to license music recorded by an on-camera mic? I realize if I overdub any copyrighted music it needs to be fully licensed, but i'm not clear on if my camera mic picks up copyrighted music the DJ is playing at a reception if I need to license that as well, or is there a legal way around that? Thanks for any insite. Bryan -->>> Do a search on my name and incidental reproduction. The law is NOT clear but the cases suggest the following: Use parts of a work for a news or non-commercial purpose, it _may_ be fair use. Use an entire work for a non-news or commercial purpose, it will _not_ be fair use.