Copyright -- Various Issues

Kevin King · October 9th, 2003, 12:44 PM

I am putting together a small piece for a local auto parts store. It will be an informational video, and will also cover a race team sponsored by the shop.

This will not be sold for profit, but rather will be distributed as a freebee and entertainment piece to certain online customers. The final piece will be distributed as a DVD. The circulation will be 200 to 500 copies the first year.

Problem is, I have NO music or sound to pull from. I've seen other "race type" videos that have mainstream music used in them. Music I know is copyrighted. These are videos sold for profit and have a relatively low circulation, perhaps 1000 to 5000 copies.

Are these people just ignoring the copyright, or are they likely actually asking for permission?

I would like to ask permission, but how would I even go about it? Who do I contact if it's a big major production company? How much should I expect to have to pay for rights to use a song for a piece like this? I know these big houses are big bucks, and there's no way I can foot a multi-thousand dollar tab for a single song on a free promo video for a small shop in smalltown America.

If I just wanted to go "royalty free" - where are some good places to look? I know there are lots of royalty free posts here at dvinfo, but most of the music I look at is major cheeze ball sounding, or they want $1000 to download a single song piece - too expensive for a small production like this.

Any advise? Thanks. I'm totally lost on this.

Rob Wilson · October 9th, 2003, 12:52 PM

Kevin,

LOTS of posts on this topic. Suggest you do a search for copyright. You'll get enough reading material go keep you busy for the next few hours! Especially lucky on this board to have a practicing copyright expert adding valuable comments (THANKS Paul T)

Mike Rehmus · October 9th, 2003, 05:15 PM

Kevin,

Go take a look at SmartSound. Not bad music. . . a lot of it comes from the Music Bakery. Very easy to use.

You can find music from $20 per track to $2,000 per needle drop.

Do a Google search for needle drop or royalty free music.

Nathan Gifford · November 12th, 2003, 08:12 AM

There are always a lot of questions about using trademarks and copywrited material. Here is a good story subject at the FindLaw website.

Matt Drudge Versus "K Street":
Does the Internet Maverick Have a Claim Against the Boundary-Testing Show? by Julie Hilden.

Jason Gatti · January 12th, 2004, 08:26 PM

I hope a person on this site can answer this question for me. Let's say I'm filming in a bar. There is music being played by a DJ, does that fall under any copyright laws? How would that work? Is there anything I need to do? Any help would be great.

Jeff Donald · January 12th, 2004, 08:49 PM

Do a search for incidental reproduction and you'll find what you're looking for. Paul Tauger has posted on it several times.

Federico Dib · January 22nd, 2004, 08:34 PM

I´ve doing some search on a doubt I have but I can´t find a straight answer...

So, I have a script where a character whistles a known song.

Strictly Legally speaking...
Can I do this without having to pay or get permissions?

Barry Gribble · January 22nd, 2004, 09:26 PM

Unfortunately, if he whistles it you have to pay for use of the song.

Fortunately, this is a little easier than paying for the performance of that song by the orinigal act...

Every once in a while you'll see a movie where a character sings a couple lines of a tune and invariably you will see that listed in teh credits:

Roxanne
Written by Sting
Performed by Eddie Murphy

And they are paying for those couple lines....

Of course, if you are just showing it at home you have no problem. But if you try to sell it or submit it to a contest or festival you will likely get booted if you don't have it all in order.

I don't know the exact process for licensing it... but you should check out www.ascap.com or www.bmi.com. They handle licensing... basically every song you have every heard publicly (I am not exagerating) is in the database of one of those organizations. They are tough too... ASCAP tried to sue the Girl Scouts one time saying that they needed to pay royalties for the songs scouts were singing around the campfire (not exagerating there either).

It could be that they only handle the compulsory licensing (radion play, live performance) and other groups handle film... someone else please chime in if they know.

Good luck.

Federico Dib · January 22nd, 2004, 09:39 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Gribble :.... They are tough too... ASCAP tried to sue the Girl Scouts one time saying that they needed to pay royalties for the songs scouts were singing around the campfire (not exagerating there either).
Good luck. -->>>

I´ve laughed for about two minutes on this one...
Man, I´m a musician... I know how hard it is.. and I don´t want somebody making money out of my music and not getting my share... but this guys sometimes are just ridiculous.

Anyway... I am not paying for a 20 sec whistling... I either change the song to something original... or make the guy whistle it almost like it and have a line like:
"Are you whistling Roxane by Police?"
"Hmm... no you got that wrong... this is an ancient Celtic Song my grandma song to me"....

(Or I could just make the guy whistle it.... and let myself get sued... mmmm.... I could use a little publicity here... mmmm)
Did I just wrote my thoughts.. Doh!!

Peter Moore · January 22nd, 2004, 10:08 PM

I wouldn't go near it Federico. Of course, if you're in Spain, I don't know what the laws are there. In the US, it's a no no. Maybe a fair use, but who wants to risk it when you can never tell what a fair use is for sure until the issue's gone to court? I don't even think the automatic licensing system by Harry Fox agency would cover this. Sorry.

That girl scouts case is ludicrous though. Big difference.

Federico Dib · January 22nd, 2004, 11:23 PM

Oh, I guess I should put a smiley when I´m joking... I was trying to be a bit humorous... but I think I´m not... well I´ll just keep trying..

Anyway, I´m not doing it... Of course I am not going to get me in trouble for 20 secs of whistling... I don´t know the laws around here neither, but I´m a musician.. I´m pretty sure I can come up with some nice whistling...

Allthough, It will be nice to use it.
The whistling of that particular song has a meaning in the whole character personality, and the lyrics (for whoever knows the song) actually have a lot to do with the story...

I guess one should not get inspiration with copyrighted material...

Let´s best not say the name of the song loud... maybe ASCAP or SGAE (those are the Spanish Inquisition of Copyrights) will come after me for inspiring my charachter in a copyrighted song.

Barry Gribble · January 26th, 2004, 03:50 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Gribble :.... They are tough too... ASCAP tried to sue the Girl Scouts one time saying that they needed to pay royalties for the songs scouts were singing around the campfire (not exagerating there either).
Good luck. -->>>

Yes... it does seem crazy, but it makes a bit more sense than the surface suggests...

If you own a copyright, you have to enforce it, or you actually lose the right to. Someone down the road can say "Well the girl scouts sang the songs, and they never asked for a royalty... how can they ask it of me?" and get off. It was a huge PR nightmare for them though, and I believe they dropped it.

Nicholi Brossia · February 19th, 2004, 03:55 PM

For security, I like to pay the $30 and get my videos registered with the Copyright Office. My only question regards what format to send the videos in on. This page http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ45.pdf (bottom left of page 4) lists the required formats in order of preference. Unfortunately, neither DVD or miniDV are listed as accepted. Therefore, the only format I can use/afford is VHS. Does anyone have information on a more updated list that includes miniDV or DVD? Are DVDs classified the same as videodisks (which technically refers to the old laserdisks)?
I'm just hoping to submit a higher quality copy than a VHS dub. Any help would be appreciated.

Jeff Donald · February 19th, 2004, 08:48 PM

To the best of my knowledge the format requirements have not changed from what is published on the site you reference. Quality is not really an issue. I would be more concerned with the archival qualities of the format, in other words how long the tape will last. A pro grade of VHS tape should last 20 to 25 years at a minimum if stored properly.

Nicholi Brossia · February 19th, 2004, 09:12 PM

Excellent, that was the answer I was looking for.

October 9th, 2003, 12:44 PM	#46
Kevin King Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 88	Copyright permission? I am putting together a small piece for a local auto parts store. It will be an informational video, and will also cover a race team sponsored by the shop. This will not be sold for profit, but rather will be distributed as a freebee and entertainment piece to certain online customers. The final piece will be distributed as a DVD. The circulation will be 200 to 500 copies the first year. Problem is, I have NO music or sound to pull from. I've seen other "race type" videos that have mainstream music used in them. Music I know is copyrighted. These are videos sold for profit and have a relatively low circulation, perhaps 1000 to 5000 copies. Are these people just ignoring the copyright, or are they likely actually asking for permission? I would like to ask permission, but how would I even go about it? Who do I contact if it's a big major production company? How much should I expect to have to pay for rights to use a song for a piece like this? I know these big houses are big bucks, and there's no way I can foot a multi-thousand dollar tab for a single song on a free promo video for a small shop in smalltown America. If I just wanted to go "royalty free" - where are some good places to look? I know there are lots of royalty free posts here at dvinfo, but most of the music I look at is major cheeze ball sounding, or they want $1000 to download a single song piece - too expensive for a small production like this. Any advise? Thanks. I'm totally lost on this.

October 9th, 2003, 05:15 PM	#48
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	Kevin, Go take a look at SmartSound. Not bad music. . . a lot of it comes from the Music Bakery. Very easy to use. You can find music from $20 per track to $2,000 per needle drop. Do a Google search for needle drop or royalty free music. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

November 12th, 2003, 08:12 AM	#49
Nathan Gifford Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Tickfaw, LA Posts: 1,217	Copyright $ Trademarks Infringement Story (Matt Drude vs K Street) There are always a lot of questions about using trademarks and copywrited material. Here is a good story subject at the FindLaw website. Matt Drudge Versus "K Street": Does the Internet Maverick Have a Claim Against the Boundary-Testing Show? by Julie Hilden. __________________ Nathan Gifford Southern Cyclist Magazine & Productions For quick answers try our Search! To see me and Rob Lohman click here

January 12th, 2004, 08:26 PM	#50
Jason Gatti Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 48	Copyright question I hope a person on this site can answer this question for me. Let's say I'm filming in a bar. There is music being played by a DJ, does that fall under any copyright laws? How would that work? Is there anything I need to do? Any help would be great.

January 12th, 2004, 08:49 PM	#51
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Do a search for incidental reproduction and you'll find what you're looking for. Paul Tauger has posted on it several times. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 9th, 2003, 12:52 PM	#47
Rob Wilson Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 473	Kevin, LOTS of posts on this topic. Suggest you do a search for copyright. You'll get enough reading material go keep you busy for the next few hours! Especially lucky on this board to have a practicing copyright expert adding valuable comments (THANKS Paul T)

January 22nd, 2004, 08:34 PM	#52
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	One more for the Copyright Gurus I´ve doing some search on a doubt I have but I can´t find a straight answer... So, I have a script where a character whistles a known song. Strictly Legally speaking... Can I do this without having to pay or get permissions? __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

January 22nd, 2004, 09:26 PM	#53
Barry Gribble Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 817	Unfortunately, if he whistles it you have to pay for use of the song. Fortunately, this is a little easier than paying for the performance of that song by the orinigal act... Every once in a while you'll see a movie where a character sings a couple lines of a tune and invariably you will see that listed in teh credits: Roxanne Written by Sting Performed by Eddie Murphy And they are paying for those couple lines.... Of course, if you are just showing it at home you have no problem. But if you try to sell it or submit it to a contest or festival you will likely get booted if you don't have it all in order. I don't know the exact process for licensing it... but you should check out www.ascap.com or www.bmi.com. They handle licensing... basically every song you have every heard publicly (I am not exagerating) is in the database of one of those organizations. They are tough too... ASCAP tried to sue the Girl Scouts one time saying that they needed to pay royalties for the songs scouts were singing around the campfire (not exagerating there either). It could be that they only handle the compulsory licensing (radion play, live performance) and other groups handle film... someone else please chime in if they know. Good luck.

January 22nd, 2004, 09:39 PM	#54
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Gribble :.... They are tough too... ASCAP tried to sue the Girl Scouts one time saying that they needed to pay royalties for the songs scouts were singing around the campfire (not exagerating there either). Good luck. -->>> I´ve laughed for about two minutes on this one... Man, I´m a musician... I know how hard it is.. and I don´t want somebody making money out of my music and not getting my share... but this guys sometimes are just ridiculous. Anyway... I am not paying for a 20 sec whistling... I either change the song to something original... or make the guy whistle it almost like it and have a line like: "Are you whistling Roxane by Police?" "Hmm... no you got that wrong... this is an ancient Celtic Song my grandma song to me".... (Or I could just make the guy whistle it.... and let myself get sued... mmmm.... I could use a little publicity here... mmmm) Did I just wrote my thoughts.. Doh!! __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

January 22nd, 2004, 10:08 PM	#55
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	I wouldn't go near it Federico. Of course, if you're in Spain, I don't know what the laws are there. In the US, it's a no no. Maybe a fair use, but who wants to risk it when you can never tell what a fair use is for sure until the issue's gone to court? I don't even think the automatic licensing system by Harry Fox agency would cover this. Sorry. That girl scouts case is ludicrous though. Big difference.

January 22nd, 2004, 11:23 PM	#56
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	Oh, I guess I should put a smiley when I´m joking... I was trying to be a bit humorous... but I think I´m not... well I´ll just keep trying.. Anyway, I´m not doing it... Of course I am not going to get me in trouble for 20 secs of whistling... I don´t know the laws around here neither, but I´m a musician.. I´m pretty sure I can come up with some nice whistling... Allthough, It will be nice to use it. The whistling of that particular song has a meaning in the whole character personality, and the lyrics (for whoever knows the song) actually have a lot to do with the story... I guess one should not get inspiration with copyrighted material... Let´s best not say the name of the song loud... maybe ASCAP or SGAE (those are the Spanish Inquisition of Copyrights) will come after me for inspiring my charachter in a copyrighted song. __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

January 26th, 2004, 03:50 AM	#57
Barry Gribble Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 817	<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Gribble :.... They are tough too... ASCAP tried to sue the Girl Scouts one time saying that they needed to pay royalties for the songs scouts were singing around the campfire (not exagerating there either). Good luck. -->>> Yes... it does seem crazy, but it makes a bit more sense than the surface suggests... If you own a copyright, you have to enforce it, or you actually lose the right to. Someone down the road can say "Well the girl scouts sang the songs, and they never asked for a royalty... how can they ask it of me?" and get off. It was a huge PR nightmare for them though, and I believe they dropped it.

February 19th, 2004, 03:55 PM	#58
Nicholi Brossia Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 389	proper video format for copyright reg. For security, I like to pay the $30 and get my videos registered with the Copyright Office. My only question regards what format to send the videos in on. This page http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ45.pdf (bottom left of page 4) lists the required formats in order of preference. Unfortunately, neither DVD or miniDV are listed as accepted. Therefore, the only format I can use/afford is VHS. Does anyone have information on a more updated list that includes miniDV or DVD? Are DVDs classified the same as videodisks (which technically refers to the old laserdisks)? I'm just hoping to submit a higher quality copy than a VHS dub. Any help would be appreciated. __________________ Nicholi Brossia

February 19th, 2004, 08:48 PM	#59
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	To the best of my knowledge the format requirements have not changed from what is published on the site you reference. Quality is not really an issue. I would be more concerned with the archival qualities of the format, in other words how long the tape will last. A pro grade of VHS tape should last 20 to 25 years at a minimum if stored properly. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

February 19th, 2004, 09:12 PM	#60
Nicholi Brossia Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 389	Excellent, that was the answer I was looking for. __________________ Nicholi Brossia