What is the name of that site...? at DVinfo.net

K. Forman · May 30th, 2004, 04:39 PM

Not sure where to post this question, but, being related to business...

It seems to me, that there was a place that people in the production biz could list warnings about dead-beat employers. I'm sure most of us have worked for someone, who was less than respectable. This site gave you the chance to warn others- They won't pay... They didn't have a clue what they were doing, and took it out on crew... etc., etc.

Any idea if this place is still around?

Dan Uneken · May 31st, 2004, 08:50 AM

Keith, I'm not sure that it's the same website, but I used to visit a site until I was sure that nothing was coming of it. Then I deleted it off my favorites, so I don't know the URL.
They had legal problems: they posted some warnings and were approached immediately by lawyers ready to sue them for libel.

I have been thinking about this problem and have added a page to my website that I have called "production relations" in which I don't write anything else but "would we again do business with...." and then a yes or a no. If more people would do this (an agreed keyword should perhaps be attached) one could do a Google search for "John Fraude + keyword". When a whole Google page comes up of "no's", from reputable Production Companies, one can draw one's own conclusion, without having to publish the dirty laundry on the Internet.

It's just an idea I had, and I'm sure there is a lot that can be improved...

What do you think?

My "production relations" page:

http://www.fotofilmvideo.com/Product...relations.html

K. Forman · May 31st, 2004, 09:21 AM

That sounds like a great idea. I'll work on that later tonight.

It's a shame that site shut down, because I would start using it before any job now. It's like a Freelancer Beware service, to keep the little guys like me from getting screwed, and not as pricey as an attorney- no offense to Paul and the other legal types here.

Please don't sue me!

Dan Uneken · June 5th, 2004, 06:05 AM

Hi Keith,

Have you (or anybody else) given this thing any thought? I'm trying to think of a keyword to include with the name of the person, which should be unlikely to come up by accident. Pehaps even a simple code that means nothing. Don't know whether Google will find a word that's not in one of it's dictionaries though. Will check on that.
I feel that we all need something to be able to flag the pirates in the business.

Law Tyler · June 5th, 2004, 06:34 AM

Would this work? I mean, there is bound to be some scambags out there, ready to help his scambag buddies by listing "Yes". Maybe both of them belong to some kind of secret society that demands he ignore his individual moral impulse (to dump the scambag). In fact, it may give people a wrong sense of security. On the flip side of your "solution", one cannot sue the poster/webmaster since they merely say "yes" to this scambag, and not state why he is good.

IMO libel and slander laws are 100% against the 1st Amendment. They made it so that only the wealthy and powerful can speak freely.

Prime example, currently in the news, is that only George Soros can do what he is doing right now, despite the fact that he was not even born in this country!

It is good that his extremism is countering W's, but still everyone in this country should be able to say or print what he or she feels. The remedy to "bad" speech is the audience not listening to that person, and NOT the speaker being censored, have his property taken away, or sent to prison.

K. Forman · June 5th, 2004, 07:48 AM

Dan- How about "Production Blacklist"? The whole purpose of this post, was to find out if there is still a place to find out who is likely to screw you over- before you work for them.

Example- I find a lot of jobs at Mandy.com, and have so far been fortunate enough to work with pretty decent folk. Of course, I found the people here are better to work with :) Most of the jobs I have taken, involved a bit of driving, including a 12 hour drive to Georgia. That is a big pain and expense, especially to get burnt. In the event that I find someone looking for a camera op, and they
A.) write me a bad check, or just outright stiff me
B.) are very un-proffesional
C.) decide to blow off the event without telling me
D.) use your imagination and fill in the blank

It would be nice to be able to warn others. This would also work the other way. If you have an event, and hire someone to man a second camera, it would be nice to know that they didn't show for their last job, are un-proffesional, drunk or high- if they show, etc.

Law- I can see where you are coming from, but there is a hole in that. You see, Employers have been doing this to Employees for years. When you fill out an application, they ask you to list your previous Employers. They then call, to find out what kind of worker you are. Why shouldn't potential Employees be able to do the same?

Dan Uneken · June 7th, 2004, 03:26 AM

Keith: Production Blacklist is the proper name, but I'm not sure if that could be interpreted as libel. Thing is if you put something like that on the web, you will possibly have to prove that your charge is true (putting someone on a blacklist may be understood as a "charge" or something). My list could be the result of me not liking the after shave that the guy used on the shoot. (That would be my defense anyway in case of a lawsuit).
But for this to work, we need a lot of production people (the ones who are interested) to be aware of the system of putting names on dedicated web pages.
Maybe just an acronym could work: PBL (production blacklist): John Fraud PBL. Enter that in Google and he comes up. It takes a week for new pages on my site to come up in Google. Perhaps don't need to put the "yes" names in, just the "no" people.

Just spoke to a guy who is 30K $ short on a shoot where the client left after the production collapsed due to lack of money. He has the negative but the production company is not interested in it, because the (short) film will never be finished.

K. Forman · June 7th, 2004, 05:05 AM

I think the most important part of this would-be site, is complete professionalism, Like Chris tries to promote here- No name calling, no opinions, just the facts.

"Hired John Fraud as camera op for an event on 2/14/04. He never showed." Or, "John Fraud was hired to cover an event on 5/12/04- He arrived intoxicated." Or, "John Fraud hired me as a camera op on 5/23/04. He promised to mail me the check, and have never heard from him again. He will not return calls or emails."

Perhaps blacklist is too strong a word. Any other ideas?

Dan Uneken · June 7th, 2004, 05:23 AM

Something like "professionals feedback forum".

The problem of concentrating everything on one site is that the site owner is responsible and cannot verify whether the complaints of individual third party posters are based on facts.
Most people have a personal website, and my suggestion is, that everyone creates a standardised searchable web page with standardised messages pertaining to the reliability of audiovisional professionals or companies. That way, each website will be responsible only for their own statements.
Someone who is about to do a job for someone will use a search engine to find this professional's name plus the keyword. That will turn out a collection of webpages with those criteria, theoretically exposing frauds because there will be many pages. One can also follow up by contacting the owners of the individual pages.

May 30th, 2004, 04:39 PM	#1
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	What is the name of that site...? Not sure where to post this question, but, being related to business... It seems to me, that there was a place that people in the production biz could list warnings about dead-beat employers. I'm sure most of us have worked for someone, who was less than respectable. This site gave you the chance to warn others- They won't pay... They didn't have a clue what they were doing, and took it out on crew... etc., etc. Any idea if this place is still around? __________________ www.SmokeWagonLeather.us

May 31st, 2004, 08:50 AM	#2
Dan Uneken Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Andalucia, Spain Posts: 301	Keith, I'm not sure that it's the same website, but I used to visit a site until I was sure that nothing was coming of it. Then I deleted it off my favorites, so I don't know the URL. They had legal problems: they posted some warnings and were approached immediately by lawyers ready to sue them for libel. I have been thinking about this problem and have added a page to my website that I have called "production relations" in which I don't write anything else but "would we again do business with...." and then a yes or a no. If more people would do this (an agreed keyword should perhaps be attached) one could do a Google search for "John Fraude + keyword". When a whole Google page comes up of "no's", from reputable Production Companies, one can draw one's own conclusion, without having to publish the dirty laundry on the Internet. It's just an idea I had, and I'm sure there is a lot that can be improved... What do you think? My "production relations" page: http://www.fotofilmvideo.com/Product...relations.html __________________ Film & TV locations & production Spain http://www.fotofilmvideo.com/

May 31st, 2004, 09:21 AM	#3
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	That sounds like a great idea. I'll work on that later tonight. It's a shame that site shut down, because I would start using it before any job now. It's like a Freelancer Beware service, to keep the little guys like me from getting screwed, and not as pricey as an attorney- no offense to Paul and the other legal types here. Please don't sue me! __________________ www.SmokeWagonLeather.us

June 5th, 2004, 06:05 AM	#4
Dan Uneken Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Andalucia, Spain Posts: 301	Hi Keith, Have you (or anybody else) given this thing any thought? I'm trying to think of a keyword to include with the name of the person, which should be unlikely to come up by accident. Pehaps even a simple code that means nothing. Don't know whether Google will find a word that's not in one of it's dictionaries though. Will check on that. I feel that we all need something to be able to flag the pirates in the business. __________________ Film & TV locations & production Spain http://www.fotofilmvideo.com/

June 5th, 2004, 07:48 AM	#6
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Dan- How about "Production Blacklist"? The whole purpose of this post, was to find out if there is still a place to find out who is likely to screw you over- before you work for them. Example- I find a lot of jobs at Mandy.com, and have so far been fortunate enough to work with pretty decent folk. Of course, I found the people here are better to work with :) Most of the jobs I have taken, involved a bit of driving, including a 12 hour drive to Georgia. That is a big pain and expense, especially to get burnt. In the event that I find someone looking for a camera op, and they A.) write me a bad check, or just outright stiff me B.) are very un-proffesional C.) decide to blow off the event without telling me D.) use your imagination and fill in the blank It would be nice to be able to warn others. This would also work the other way. If you have an event, and hire someone to man a second camera, it would be nice to know that they didn't show for their last job, are un-proffesional, drunk or high- if they show, etc. Law- I can see where you are coming from, but there is a hole in that. You see, Employers have been doing this to Employees for years. When you fill out an application, they ask you to list your previous Employers. They then call, to find out what kind of worker you are. Why shouldn't potential Employees be able to do the same? __________________ www.SmokeWagonLeather.us

June 5th, 2004, 06:34 AM	#5
Law Tyler Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 204	Would this work? I mean, there is bound to be some scambags out there, ready to help his scambag buddies by listing "Yes". Maybe both of them belong to some kind of secret society that demands he ignore his individual moral impulse (to dump the scambag). In fact, it may give people a wrong sense of security. On the flip side of your "solution", one cannot sue the poster/webmaster since they merely say "yes" to this scambag, and not state why he is good. IMO libel and slander laws are 100% against the 1st Amendment. They made it so that only the wealthy and powerful can speak freely. Prime example, currently in the news, is that only George Soros can do what he is doing right now, despite the fact that he was not even born in this country! It is good that his extremism is countering W's, but still everyone in this country should be able to say or print what he or she feels. The remedy to "bad" speech is the audience not listening to that person, and NOT the speaker being censored, have his property taken away, or sent to prison.

June 7th, 2004, 03:26 AM	#7
Dan Uneken Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Andalucia, Spain Posts: 301	Keith: Production Blacklist is the proper name, but I'm not sure if that could be interpreted as libel. Thing is if you put something like that on the web, you will possibly have to prove that your charge is true (putting someone on a blacklist may be understood as a "charge" or something). My list could be the result of me not liking the after shave that the guy used on the shoot. (That would be my defense anyway in case of a lawsuit). But for this to work, we need a lot of production people (the ones who are interested) to be aware of the system of putting names on dedicated web pages. Maybe just an acronym could work: PBL (production blacklist): John Fraud PBL. Enter that in Google and he comes up. It takes a week for new pages on my site to come up in Google. Perhaps don't need to put the "yes" names in, just the "no" people. Just spoke to a guy who is 30K $ short on a shoot where the client left after the production collapsed due to lack of money. He has the negative but the production company is not interested in it, because the (short) film will never be finished. __________________ Film & TV locations & production Spain http://www.fotofilmvideo.com/

June 7th, 2004, 05:05 AM	#8
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	I think the most important part of this would-be site, is complete professionalism, Like Chris tries to promote here- No name calling, no opinions, just the facts. "Hired John Fraud as camera op for an event on 2/14/04. He never showed." Or, "John Fraud was hired to cover an event on 5/12/04- He arrived intoxicated." Or, "John Fraud hired me as a camera op on 5/23/04. He promised to mail me the check, and have never heard from him again. He will not return calls or emails." Perhaps blacklist is too strong a word. Any other ideas? __________________ www.SmokeWagonLeather.us

June 7th, 2004, 05:23 AM	#9
Dan Uneken Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Andalucia, Spain Posts: 301	Something like "professionals feedback forum". The problem of concentrating everything on one site is that the site owner is responsible and cannot verify whether the complaints of individual third party posters are based on facts. Most people have a personal website, and my suggestion is, that everyone creates a standardised searchable web page with standardised messages pertaining to the reliability of audiovisional professionals or companies. That way, each website will be responsible only for their own statements. Someone who is about to do a job for someone will use a search engine to find this professional's name plus the keyword. That will turn out a collection of webpages with those criteria, theoretically exposing frauds because there will be many pages. One can also follow up by contacting the owners of the individual pages. __________________ Film & TV locations & production Spain http://www.fotofilmvideo.com/