Client's favorite music CD as underscore? at DVinfo.net

Dan Gutwein · December 21st, 2003, 10:16 PM

If a client wants me to use their favorite CD as music background on their wedding or special event DVD, am I violating copyright if I provide them with that service. I'm not selling the music (which they already own and I think have the right to duplicate for private use) - I'm selling my services as a videographer and editor. Am I wrong?

Dan Gutwein

Glenn Chan · December 21st, 2003, 11:40 PM

1- In a lot of cases the odds of getting sued over it is very very low.

2- You usually need to secure rights if someone is supposed to be making money.

If this is for "personal" use (i.e. you're making a home video or doing a wedding video for free as a favour) then you may not need to clear your music since it falls under fair use. I don't think you fall into that category. You're *supposed* to secure the rights to the music in this case.

Jay Rose's "sound advice" column over at dv.com has lots of great practical information about putting music to video. If you don't take the "just do it" approach then his articles has information on alternatives.

John Britt · December 22nd, 2003, 08:46 AM

I am not a lawyer....

Glenn is correct in saying that something like a wedding video *probably* won't get you in trouble.

And he is especially correct in saying that you are violating copyright laws by using said music in the video. The basic response to your comment that you are not "selling the music but selling your services" is that the music becomes an integral component of the service you are selling. That particular piece of music creates and enhances the mood in the video, just as your style of editing does. If it wasn't integral to the mood, you'd just throw a polka song in there, wouldn't you? Therefore, it is the right of the original artist (or other copyright holder) to have a say in how you use their work thusly.

That said, I'm interested in what you mean by "which they already own and I think have the right to duplicate for private use" -- regarding your client's relationship to the music. Did they commission the work from the artist specifically?

I agree on reading Jay Rose as well. You'll be amazed at the number of different types of usage rights one has to acquire just to use one song in a movie (to use one example). Music copyright law can be complex to begin with. When you start throwing in video, it just gets confusing....

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EDIT: Thinking of preemptive argument...

"Still, I'm just using music as a tool. You say the music helps set the mood? Well, so does that cross-dissolve I used. Do I need to start paying royalties on cross-dissolves now, too?"

Actually, in a sense, you already did. When you purchased and installed your editing software, you agreed to a particular licensing agreement that laid out, in part, how you can use that application. If, for example, you purchased an Academic version you probably agreed to *not* use the program for any commercial purposes. Some software/hardware developers make users pay an annual licensing fee to continue working. How you are allowed to use your "tools" is dictated by their creator. The same goes for music.

Sorry. The week of Christmas is basically pointless here at work and I'm already getting punchy. Maybe I should start a whole new thread of arguments with myself...

Jeff Donald · December 22nd, 2003, 09:15 AM

This topic has been covered here at DV Info as well. Paul Tauger (an attorney) has commented at length on this very issue in this thread.

John Britt · December 22nd, 2003, 09:29 AM

Jeff -- thanks for the link. That is some great reading. There should be a permanent link to that thread on the site! (Or maybe Paul could author a catch-all essay on the topic!)

Dan Gutwein · December 22nd, 2003, 11:15 AM

I should have looked harder for Paul's thread, and the argument that one pays software companies for disolves is a good one.

Dan

Anthony Lee · December 23rd, 2003, 03:17 PM

Couldn't you just sell the customer a video with no soundtrack, then tell them to bring their cd's over and have them hit the render button?

John Britt · December 23rd, 2003, 03:57 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Anthony Lee : Couldn't you just sell the customer a video with no soundtrack, then tell them to bring their cd's over and have them hit the render button? -->>>

This idea is mentioned in the above-linked thread posted by Jeff Donald. Let me repeat that it is one good read. I've got a mind to bump it just more people like me will get a chance to read it.

Dylan Couper · December 24th, 2003, 01:07 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by John Britt : Jeff -- thanks for the link. That is some great reading. There should be a permanent link to that thread on the site! (Or maybe Paul could author a catch-all essay on the topic!) -->>>

There is a link to it in the Business Forum FAQ at the top of the Business Forum.

John Britt · December 24th, 2003, 01:57 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Dylan Couper :
There is a link to it in the Business Forum FAQ at the top of the Business Forum. -->>>

Did you just do that?! I looked at that FAQ before I posted my comment to Jeff and I swear it wasn't there (I did see the first question there, though). Am I going insane?

Dylan Couper · December 24th, 2003, 11:11 AM

Tee hee...
Yeah... :)

I meant to put a link to it a month ago, but your request reminded me. Thanks!

December 21st, 2003, 10:16 PM	#1
Dan Gutwein Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Posts: 35	Client's favorite music CD as underscore? If a client wants me to use their favorite CD as music background on their wedding or special event DVD, am I violating copyright if I provide them with that service. I'm not selling the music (which they already own and I think have the right to duplicate for private use) - I'm selling my services as a videographer and editor. Am I wrong? Dan Gutwein

December 22nd, 2003, 09:15 AM	#4
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	This topic has been covered here at DV Info as well. Paul Tauger (an attorney) has commented at length on this very issue in this thread. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

December 22nd, 2003, 11:15 AM	#6
Dan Gutwein Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Posts: 35	Of course - the "disolve argument" makes sense I should have looked harder for Paul's thread, and the argument that one pays software companies for disolves is a good one. Dan

December 24th, 2003, 01:07 AM	#9
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	<<<-- Originally posted by John Britt : Jeff -- thanks for the link. That is some great reading. There should be a permanent link to that thread on the site! (Or maybe Paul could author a catch-all essay on the topic!) -->>> There is a link to it in the Business Forum FAQ at the top of the Business Forum. __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

December 24th, 2003, 11:11 AM	#11
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	Tee hee... Yeah... :) I meant to put a link to it a month ago, but your request reminded me. Thanks! __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

December 21st, 2003, 11:40 PM	#2
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	1- In a lot of cases the odds of getting sued over it is very very low. 2- You usually need to secure rights if someone is supposed to be making money. If this is for "personal" use (i.e. you're making a home video or doing a wedding video for free as a favour) then you may not need to clear your music since it falls under fair use. I don't think you fall into that category. You're supposed to secure the rights to the music in this case. Jay Rose's "sound advice" column over at dv.com has lots of great practical information about putting music to video. If you don't take the "just do it" approach then his articles has information on alternatives.

December 22nd, 2003, 08:46 AM	#3
John Britt Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 621	I am not a lawyer.... Glenn is correct in saying that something like a wedding video probably won't get you in trouble. And he is especially correct in saying that you are violating copyright laws by using said music in the video. The basic response to your comment that you are not "selling the music but selling your services" is that the music becomes an integral component of the service you are selling. That particular piece of music creates and enhances the mood in the video, just as your style of editing does. If it wasn't integral to the mood, you'd just throw a polka song in there, wouldn't you? Therefore, it is the right of the original artist (or other copyright holder) to have a say in how you use their work thusly. That said, I'm interested in what you mean by "which they already own and I think have the right to duplicate for private use" -- regarding your client's relationship to the music. Did they commission the work from the artist specifically? I agree on reading Jay Rose as well. You'll be amazed at the number of different types of usage rights one has to acquire just to use one song in a movie (to use one example). Music copyright law can be complex to begin with. When you start throwing in video, it just gets confusing.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EDIT: Thinking of preemptive argument... "Still, I'm just using music as a tool. You say the music helps set the mood? Well, so does that cross-dissolve I used. Do I need to start paying royalties on cross-dissolves now, too?" Actually, in a sense, you already did. When you purchased and installed your editing software, you agreed to a particular licensing agreement that laid out, in part, how you can use that application. If, for example, you purchased an Academic version you probably agreed to not use the program for any commercial purposes. Some software/hardware developers make users pay an annual licensing fee to continue working. How you are allowed to use your "tools" is dictated by their creator. The same goes for music. Sorry. The week of Christmas is basically pointless here at work and I'm already getting punchy. Maybe I should start a whole new thread of arguments with myself...

December 22nd, 2003, 09:29 AM	#5
John Britt Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 621	Jeff -- thanks for the link. That is some great reading. There should be a permanent link to that thread on the site! (Or maybe Paul could author a catch-all essay on the topic!)

December 23rd, 2003, 03:17 PM	#7
Anthony Lee New Boot Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kalispell Montana Posts: 22	Couldn't you just sell the customer a video with no soundtrack, then tell them to bring their cd's over and have them hit the render button?

December 23rd, 2003, 03:57 PM	#8
John Britt Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 621	<<<-- Originally posted by Anthony Lee : Couldn't you just sell the customer a video with no soundtrack, then tell them to bring their cd's over and have them hit the render button? -->>> This idea is mentioned in the above-linked thread posted by Jeff Donald. Let me repeat that it is one good read. I've got a mind to bump it just more people like me will get a chance to read it.

December 24th, 2003, 01:57 AM	#10
John Britt Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 621	<<<-- Originally posted by Dylan Couper : There is a link to it in the Business Forum FAQ at the top of the Business Forum. -->>> Did you just do that?! I looked at that FAQ before I posted my comment to Jeff and I swear it wasn't there (I did see the first question there, though). Am I going insane?