What should I charge? at DVinfo.net

Federico Dib · December 19th, 2003, 09:43 PM

This one is a little long so be patient.

BACKGROUND:

A few months ago, a friend asked me to help him make a documentary of a rock festival that was happening in his hometown.
I got there with my gear (XM-2 and accesories).. and two other guys with their stuff.. one of them with a big nice DVX-100 and the other just a small consumer Sony...
We shot all day long... Although I made about 8 tapes... (that´s 3 more than the "Big Guy"... and 5 more that the "little guy").

Anyway it was supposed to be an "ART" thing that my friend was doing to send to festivals or something, kind of like a woodstock documentary... just smaller and cheaper...

THE PROBLEM:

A few days ago I found out, by third parties I might add, that my friend and the "Big Guy" had edited separate copies of the concerts of each band and they were selling them. Also I heard (and saw) they made 250 copies of a "Best Of" the festival and are seling them for 15 Euros...

I was obviously left out of this little business... The Video I saw was at least half done with my footage... and of course I feel used, and dissapointed at my friend.. although my name appears in the credits as First Cammera or something like that.. I still feel cheated.. If I´d known he was selling I would have not worked for free.

I didn´t sign anything... so I know that I can´t do anything about this (don´t want either), ... but here comes..

THE QUESTIONs:

1. - If I had been "Invited" to this little business, by a percentage of the earnings kind of deal..
What should I´ve asked for... being that I was the main camera. ?

2. - How much (aprox) do you guys charge (or would charge) for doing this... meaning going to an event with your gear, shoot all day long give the "payer" the tapes, and go home.
Excluded food and transportation... I know how to charge that :-)

Dylan Couper · December 19th, 2003, 10:39 PM

Hi
Here is my point of view.
First off, I'm not sure what the laws are in your area, but from what I understand, if you don't have a contract saying anything, the footage you shoot belongs to you. If you agreed to shoot it for a documentary, and that purpose only, and were involved in it for that reason only, and he is using your footage to make money in a different way, then he is stealing your footage.
If you are sure you can prove that he actualy used your footage, than I would count up the percentage of the footage on the tape, and DEMAND that percent of the gross profit (money made before expenses). If 50% of the footage in their video is yours, then demand 7.5 Euros time 250 copies for a total of $1875 Euros.
He'll probably say no, or try to talk you down to a lower figure (if he is smart). If he offers the lower figure, you might take it. If he says no outright, go to a lawyer and sue him.
Consider the amount punitive damage for him taking your material and screwing you over.

If you wanted a fair amount, then I would either calculate the time and cost you put into shooting, I'd base it on $500 for a day rate, plus expenses, and tell him you want that much for the rights to use your footage. If they had asked you to be part of it in the first place, I would have asked for 33% of the profit.

Federico Dib · December 20th, 2003, 06:12 AM

Well, I like your point of view... those were my initial thouhgts, (maybe include a few kicks and a nice punch right to the nose).

I don´t know the laws in my area either (I´m new here)... but I do know how much a lawyer might charge... and it´s not going to be worth the time nor the money for a few reasons:

- The whole business is "underground"... so no receipts or anything. I don´t think they even have written permission (release forms?) from the bands, record labels or the people that appear.

- How could I prove the footage is mine? At the end of the day I gave him all the tapes. I know wittnesses can tell where was I shooting from, etc... but I think that will be a little too complicated.. even more because it was my friend´s hometown, and witnesses are his friends and family.. I´d just play the greedy foreigner.

- Because he is not going to make any money... I know him.. he was my friend after all.. and he couldn´t sell a glass of water in the desert. He will end up giving for free half of the copies...

And this morning I saw a copy of the video... for 15 Euros.. it´s a rip off... Blown out reds, very BAD audio mixing.. there´s a band sound that is only on the right channel, so mono Tv´s or VCR don´t have that sound, etc..

I´m pretty sure they now are asking themselves why they didn´t asked me to be a part of it... they know I would have taken care of those "little" details...

I haven´t talked to him directly... but when I do I will ask him for my part... just to see what he says, and what kind of person he is... But I don´t think I´ll see any money.. (he´d probably loose some at the end). One thing is for sure.. I am not working with him anymore, and he is allready regreting his greed, and not taking "the tech guy" in.

But thanx for the reply, next time I´ll be more carefull.

And "$500 for a day rate"?
I think I can´t be there quite yet... BUt I might start readjusting my rates... I know local market is blown out... but I still have my "day job", and my dignity.

Don Donatello · December 20th, 2003, 06:06 PM

"it was supposed to be an "ART" thing that my friend was doing to send to festivals or something, kind of like a woodstock documentary... just smaller and cheaper... "

the problem you have is the " send to festivals or SOMETHING" . well you gave them all your tapes and now he is doing the OR SOMETHING. seeing how you all really did it for fun as you have no release form the bands you really can't sell em (legal) .. so they are selling bootleg video's and you want a piece. now that might be a interesting court hearing?? could a judge award you $$ on illegals sales of bootleg concert ??
you have to speak to your friends. ask em for a a share of the proceeds - if it goes into long discussion then ask for a flat rate. if all else fails you can always contact the bands manager, record distributors etc and tell em where to find the video for sale???

IMO when i give somebody original tapes ( i do not keep copies) for a project with NO written agreement it is theirs to keep - do as they wish and i take NO CREDIT ... i just helping out friends for free ...

off hand - who supplied the TAPES ??

Federico Dib · December 20th, 2003, 08:06 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Don Donatello : "....
the problem you have is the " send to festivals or SOMETHING" . -->>

Well it was just the way I wrote.. I should have said "It was going to be a documentary to send to festivals. Period". There was never any talk about selling. Not in my face anyway...

<<<-- ....so they are selling bootleg video's and you want a piece. now that might be a interesting court hearing?? could a judge award you $$ on illegals sales of bootleg concert ??..... -->>>
I´ve been laughing for a while picturing the judges face..
(mmmm.. this is not USA... actually this is Spain.. and "Spain is different".. so who knows)

I could sew them for using my LAWFULL Artistic work in an ilegal way, and thus, endangering my reputation, or something like that...
Allthough we had permission and credentials of the festival organisation.. they knew we were making a documentary, I just think the bands record lables will not like that video and the way it´s being sold.

But as I say before it´s not worth the legal hassle anyway, they are not going to sell much... and if they do.. they probably get in trouble as one of the bands (that I know) is pretty big and has an International Record Label behind. For me is just a matter of ethics and friendship.. and of course I posted here to try and learn as much as I can from this situation, and your opinions.

<<<-- ....IMO when i give somebody original tapes ( i do not keep copies) for a project with NO written agreement it is theirs to keep - do as they wish and i take NO CREDIT ... i just helping out friends for free ...-->>>

I agree completely. I was helping a friend for free... but If I should have known he was planning on making a profit... then I would have asked for either a Flat Price.. or a percentage of the earnings...

<<<-- off hand - who supplied the TAPES ?? -->>>
He did... Even If I´m helping a friend for free... If I don´t get the tapes, transportation, food, cafeine and a couple of beers.. then I don´t do it.. All my friends know this... as this is what I offer my friends when I need help.

Richard Alvarez · December 20th, 2003, 08:50 PM

Hmmmm.
A lot of legal issues to consider, but my advice.

Write it off as a hard lesson and move on. From your description, you don't want to own part of a lawsuit in copyright infringement.

The lessons learned -

This guy is not your friend.

NOTHING is understood unless it is written down.

No one gets what they deserve, only what they negotiate.

December 19th, 2003, 09:43 PM	#1
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	What should I charge? This one is a little long so be patient. BACKGROUND: A few months ago, a friend asked me to help him make a documentary of a rock festival that was happening in his hometown. I got there with my gear (XM-2 and accesories).. and two other guys with their stuff.. one of them with a big nice DVX-100 and the other just a small consumer Sony... We shot all day long... Although I made about 8 tapes... (that´s 3 more than the "Big Guy"... and 5 more that the "little guy"). Anyway it was supposed to be an "ART" thing that my friend was doing to send to festivals or something, kind of like a woodstock documentary... just smaller and cheaper... THE PROBLEM: A few days ago I found out, by third parties I might add, that my friend and the "Big Guy" had edited separate copies of the concerts of each band and they were selling them. Also I heard (and saw) they made 250 copies of a "Best Of" the festival and are seling them for 15 Euros... I was obviously left out of this little business... The Video I saw was at least half done with my footage... and of course I feel used, and dissapointed at my friend.. although my name appears in the credits as First Cammera or something like that.. I still feel cheated.. If I´d known he was selling I would have not worked for free. I didn´t sign anything... so I know that I can´t do anything about this (don´t want either), ... but here comes.. THE QUESTIONs: 1. - If I had been "Invited" to this little business, by a percentage of the earnings kind of deal.. What should I´ve asked for... being that I was the main camera. ? 2. - How much (aprox) do you guys charge (or would charge) for doing this... meaning going to an event with your gear, shoot all day long give the "payer" the tapes, and go home. Excluded food and transportation... I know how to charge that :-) __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

December 19th, 2003, 10:39 PM	#2
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	Hi Here is my point of view. First off, I'm not sure what the laws are in your area, but from what I understand, if you don't have a contract saying anything, the footage you shoot belongs to you. If you agreed to shoot it for a documentary, and that purpose only, and were involved in it for that reason only, and he is using your footage to make money in a different way, then he is stealing your footage. If you are sure you can prove that he actualy used your footage, than I would count up the percentage of the footage on the tape, and DEMAND that percent of the gross profit (money made before expenses). If 50% of the footage in their video is yours, then demand 7.5 Euros time 250 copies for a total of $1875 Euros. He'll probably say no, or try to talk you down to a lower figure (if he is smart). If he offers the lower figure, you might take it. If he says no outright, go to a lawyer and sue him. Consider the amount punitive damage for him taking your material and screwing you over. If you wanted a fair amount, then I would either calculate the time and cost you put into shooting, I'd base it on $500 for a day rate, plus expenses, and tell him you want that much for the rights to use your footage. If they had asked you to be part of it in the first place, I would have asked for 33% of the profit. __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

December 20th, 2003, 06:12 AM	#3
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	Well, I like your point of view... those were my initial thouhgts, (maybe include a few kicks and a nice punch right to the nose). I don´t know the laws in my area either (I´m new here)... but I do know how much a lawyer might charge... and it´s not going to be worth the time nor the money for a few reasons: - The whole business is "underground"... so no receipts or anything. I don´t think they even have written permission (release forms?) from the bands, record labels or the people that appear. - How could I prove the footage is mine? At the end of the day I gave him all the tapes. I know wittnesses can tell where was I shooting from, etc... but I think that will be a little too complicated.. even more because it was my friend´s hometown, and witnesses are his friends and family.. I´d just play the greedy foreigner. - Because he is not going to make any money... I know him.. he was my friend after all.. and he couldn´t sell a glass of water in the desert. He will end up giving for free half of the copies... And this morning I saw a copy of the video... for 15 Euros.. it´s a rip off... Blown out reds, very BAD audio mixing.. there´s a band sound that is only on the right channel, so mono Tv´s or VCR don´t have that sound, etc.. I´m pretty sure they now are asking themselves why they didn´t asked me to be a part of it... they know I would have taken care of those "little" details... I haven´t talked to him directly... but when I do I will ask him for my part... just to see what he says, and what kind of person he is... But I don´t think I´ll see any money.. (he´d probably loose some at the end). One thing is for sure.. I am not working with him anymore, and he is allready regreting his greed, and not taking "the tech guy" in. But thanx for the reply, next time I´ll be more carefull. And "$500 for a day rate"? I think I can´t be there quite yet... BUt I might start readjusting my rates... I know local market is blown out... but I still have my "day job", and my dignity. __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

December 20th, 2003, 08:06 PM	#5
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	<<<-- Originally posted by Don Donatello : ".... the problem you have is the " send to festivals or SOMETHING" . -->> Well it was just the way I wrote.. I should have said "It was going to be a documentary to send to festivals. Period". There was never any talk about selling. Not in my face anyway... <<<-- ....so they are selling bootleg video's and you want a piece. now that might be a interesting court hearing?? could a judge award you $$ on illegals sales of bootleg concert ??..... -->>> I´ve been laughing for a while picturing the judges face.. (mmmm.. this is not USA... actually this is Spain.. and "Spain is different".. so who knows) I could sew them for using my LAWFULL Artistic work in an ilegal way, and thus, endangering my reputation, or something like that... Allthough we had permission and credentials of the festival organisation.. they knew we were making a documentary, I just think the bands record lables will not like that video and the way it´s being sold. But as I say before it´s not worth the legal hassle anyway, they are not going to sell much... and if they do.. they probably get in trouble as one of the bands (that I know) is pretty big and has an International Record Label behind. For me is just a matter of ethics and friendship.. and of course I posted here to try and learn as much as I can from this situation, and your opinions. <<<-- ....IMO when i give somebody original tapes ( i do not keep copies) for a project with NO written agreement it is theirs to keep - do as they wish and i take NO CREDIT ... i just helping out friends for free ...-->>> I agree completely. I was helping a friend for free... but If I should have known he was planning on making a profit... then I would have asked for either a Flat Price.. or a percentage of the earnings... <<<-- off hand - who supplied the TAPES ?? -->>> He did... Even If I´m helping a friend for free... If I don´t get the tapes, transportation, food, cafeine and a couple of beers.. then I don´t do it.. All my friends know this... as this is what I offer my friends when I need help. __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

December 20th, 2003, 06:06 PM	#4
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	"it was supposed to be an "ART" thing that my friend was doing to send to festivals or something, kind of like a woodstock documentary... just smaller and cheaper... " the problem you have is the " send to festivals or SOMETHING" . well you gave them all your tapes and now he is doing the OR SOMETHING. seeing how you all really did it for fun as you have no release form the bands you really can't sell em (legal) .. so they are selling bootleg video's and you want a piece. now that might be a interesting court hearing?? could a judge award you $$ on illegals sales of bootleg concert ?? you have to speak to your friends. ask em for a a share of the proceeds - if it goes into long discussion then ask for a flat rate. if all else fails you can always contact the bands manager, record distributors etc and tell em where to find the video for sale??? IMO when i give somebody original tapes ( i do not keep copies) for a project with NO written agreement it is theirs to keep - do as they wish and i take NO CREDIT ... i just helping out friends for free ... off hand - who supplied the TAPES ??

December 20th, 2003, 08:50 PM	#6
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Hmmmm. A lot of legal issues to consider, but my advice. Write it off as a hard lesson and move on. From your description, you don't want to own part of a lawsuit in copyright infringement. The lessons learned - This guy is not your friend. NOTHING is understood unless it is written down. No one gets what they deserve, only what they negotiate.