Insurance -- the big discussion thread

Dan Uneken · June 17th, 2004, 10:09 AM

Here goes Raoul:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=17197

Cheers

Josh Bass · June 17th, 2004, 11:02 AM

Yeah, I keep weird hours.

Well, I got a quote back from the production insurance place. For what state farms wants $200 a year for, this place wants around $860! Damn!

Peter Wiley · June 17th, 2004, 11:34 AM

The quotes Josh got are interesting.

The question is how the policies differ. The production insurance folks are "in the business" and so one might assume they have a good idea of the risks they are taking. I wonder about State Farm. One would hate to have a problem and then discover limitations of the coverage.

The difference in price makes one stop and think.

Tim Brown · June 17th, 2004, 11:39 AM

I know what you mean Josh.

I submitted a request for a quote from that company, and with the premium combined with the $1,000 deductible, it's almost more economical to go sans insurance for prosumer gear and if there is a loss just buying new.

-Tim

Josh Bass · June 17th, 2004, 11:39 AM

No shizzle.

Josh Bass · June 17th, 2004, 11:59 AM

One thing I should note is that that quote he gave me covers you internationally, as well. Not a big deal to me, but maybe to some of you.

Dan Uneken · June 17th, 2004, 12:17 PM

To me it's obvious: go without insurance. Put the 800 bucks in a separate bank account every year. And be careful with your gear ;-)

Mike Rehmus · July 16th, 2004, 08:56 PM

Starting July 1, the state EDD has started enforcing a law that requires a busness who employs Independent Contractors to obtain disability insurance (SDI) for them. If you do not, the penalty can cause serious damage to your company.

So, if like me, you hire Directors and others on a per-job basis and they are truly Independent Contractors, you now have to obtain that very expensive insurance.

Or hire everyone through a temp agency and pay the approximately 150% of the salary you would have paid directly.

So, my prices go up once again. Or I go out of state for narrative work at the least and only have to worry about the Director, the Sound person and the Lighting contractor.

They track this by checking the 542 form (one has to report hiring an Independet Contractor within 20 days of paying them $600 or more per year or agreeing to do so) against the payments for disability insurance.

It is said that the fine can be as much as $10,000 per incident.

Had an opportunity to talk with the local State Senator about this surprise. He knew nothing about it even though he heads up the Finance Committee.

So write your state rep and tell him/her you want that off the books yesterday.

Dean Bull · July 21st, 2004, 01:09 AM

I claim no mastery over the various in's and outs of independent contracting, but I was under the impression that an independent contractor was supposed to cover him/herself and in return gets the freedom of naming their own wage and how many hours/jobs they intend to work.

I must say this is a serious set-back for independent contractors and employers alike -- like you said, time to take jobs out of new socialist California. If this stuff keeps up I will just send my paycheck to the state government and let them send back what they think I need.

If anyone lives in California who reads this take Mikes advice and write the state reps.

Law Tyler · July 21st, 2004, 06:28 AM

Gee, I wonder why the others are not saying anything about this stupid contradiction. Do they agree with it, or are they saying "screw California" under their breath?

I dont' live in California, but now that we have idiots running the show on both sides of the aisle, with all types of money interests playing puppet masters, this thing might spread.

Mike Rehmus · July 21st, 2004, 01:20 PM

Dear Senator Chesbro,

Thanks for spending time with us at the Vallejo Rotary club last week.

I an very concerned about the requirement that a business has to provide insurance for the Independent Contractors they hire. That is outrageous and I want it removed from California law as soon as possible.

As a small businessman, a video production company, I have to hire directors, camerapersons, sound persons and lighting experts on a per-job basis. These people make their living hiring their company's services to companies like mine.

The effect of this insurance law is to increase by 50% the amount of money I have to charge my clients for their work.

As I've already found out, to nobody's surprise, the price increase is not accepted gracefully.

I feel the state overburdens the small business and this is just the frosting on the cake.

I could make more money by moving out of state and accepting lower prices for my work.

Certainly, until I determine if at least this law will be modified or repealed I will be forced to send contracts for creative work like 3D graphics, narrative services and script-writing out of state.

We continue to make California a hostile place to do business and I'd like you to do something about it before all we can do is stand around and reminisce how nice it was when California had an industrial base.

Richard Alvarez · July 21st, 2004, 01:35 PM

Ahh jeez guys, I'm on my way out there next week! What a bummer. Although, while I owned my own theatrical production company here in texas, I carried liability and workers comp on my independent contractors. Basically, I explained to the show owners, that this was for THEIR protection in case they were hurt. I still sold shows.

Still, it's a pain in the neck.

Dennis Vogel · July 21st, 2004, 03:52 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : Had an opportunity to talk with the local State Senator about this surprise. He knew nothing about it even though he heads up the Finance Committee.-->>>

Maybe it's just me but I'd be as concerned about this as the new insurance requirement. Did you ask him why he isn't doing his job?

Dennis Vogel

Mike Rehmus · July 22nd, 2004, 11:14 PM

I don't think any one person can be aware of all of the legislation and laws in California.

Robert Mann Z. · July 22nd, 2004, 11:28 PM

this is very interesting thread, the only way to fight this legislation is through the courts, prove its un-justifiable...i bet your senator is in bed with the insurance companies, as this is the least friendly small business law i have seen in a long time...

the only thought i have is does this law apply to all california business or all business doing business in california? maybe setting up nevada certificate might help...

June 17th, 2004, 10:09 AM	#181
Dan Uneken Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Andalucia, Spain Posts: 301	Here goes Raoul: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=17197 Cheers __________________ Film & TV locations & production Spain http://www.fotofilmvideo.com/

June 17th, 2004, 11:02 AM	#182
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Yeah, I keep weird hours. Well, I got a quote back from the production insurance place. For what state farms wants $200 a year for, this place wants around $860! Damn! __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

June 17th, 2004, 11:39 AM	#185
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	No shizzle. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

June 17th, 2004, 11:59 AM	#186
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	One thing I should note is that that quote he gave me covers you internationally, as well. Not a big deal to me, but maybe to some of you. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

June 17th, 2004, 12:17 PM	#187
Dan Uneken Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Andalucia, Spain Posts: 301	To me it's obvious: go without insurance. Put the 800 bucks in a separate bank account every year. And be careful with your gear ;-) __________________ Film & TV locations & production Spain http://www.fotofilmvideo.com/

June 17th, 2004, 11:34 AM	#183
Peter Wiley Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lewisburg PA Posts: 752	The quotes Josh got are interesting. The question is how the policies differ. The production insurance folks are "in the business" and so one might assume they have a good idea of the risks they are taking. I wonder about State Farm. One would hate to have a problem and then discover limitations of the coverage. The difference in price makes one stop and think.

June 17th, 2004, 11:39 AM	#184
Tim Brown Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Richmond, Virginia Posts: 263	I know what you mean Josh. I submitted a request for a quote from that company, and with the premium combined with the $1,000 deductible, it's almost more economical to go sans insurance for prosumer gear and if there is a loss just buying new. -Tim

July 16th, 2004, 08:56 PM	#188
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	New gotcha for California business Starting July 1, the state EDD has started enforcing a law that requires a busness who employs Independent Contractors to obtain disability insurance (SDI) for them. If you do not, the penalty can cause serious damage to your company. So, if like me, you hire Directors and others on a per-job basis and they are truly Independent Contractors, you now have to obtain that very expensive insurance. Or hire everyone through a temp agency and pay the approximately 150% of the salary you would have paid directly. So, my prices go up once again. Or I go out of state for narrative work at the least and only have to worry about the Director, the Sound person and the Lighting contractor. They track this by checking the 542 form (one has to report hiring an Independet Contractor within 20 days of paying them $600 or more per year or agreeing to do so) against the payments for disability insurance. It is said that the fine can be as much as $10,000 per incident. Had an opportunity to talk with the local State Senator about this surprise. He knew nothing about it even though he heads up the Finance Committee. So write your state rep and tell him/her you want that off the books yesterday. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

July 21st, 2004, 01:09 AM	#189
Dean Bull Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 106	I claim no mastery over the various in's and outs of independent contracting, but I was under the impression that an independent contractor was supposed to cover him/herself and in return gets the freedom of naming their own wage and how many hours/jobs they intend to work. I must say this is a serious set-back for independent contractors and employers alike -- like you said, time to take jobs out of new socialist California. If this stuff keeps up I will just send my paycheck to the state government and let them send back what they think I need. If anyone lives in California who reads this take Mikes advice and write the state reps.

July 21st, 2004, 06:28 AM	#190
Law Tyler Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 204	Gee, I wonder why the others are not saying anything about this stupid contradiction. Do they agree with it, or are they saying "screw California" under their breath? I dont' live in California, but now that we have idiots running the show on both sides of the aisle, with all types of money interests playing puppet masters, this thing might spread.

July 21st, 2004, 01:20 PM	#191
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	Here's what I just wrote my state Senator Dear Senator Chesbro, Thanks for spending time with us at the Vallejo Rotary club last week. I an very concerned about the requirement that a business has to provide insurance for the Independent Contractors they hire. That is outrageous and I want it removed from California law as soon as possible. As a small businessman, a video production company, I have to hire directors, camerapersons, sound persons and lighting experts on a per-job basis. These people make their living hiring their company's services to companies like mine. The effect of this insurance law is to increase by 50% the amount of money I have to charge my clients for their work. As I've already found out, to nobody's surprise, the price increase is not accepted gracefully. I feel the state overburdens the small business and this is just the frosting on the cake. I could make more money by moving out of state and accepting lower prices for my work. Certainly, until I determine if at least this law will be modified or repealed I will be forced to send contracts for creative work like 3D graphics, narrative services and script-writing out of state. We continue to make California a hostile place to do business and I'd like you to do something about it before all we can do is stand around and reminisce how nice it was when California had an industrial base. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

July 21st, 2004, 01:35 PM	#192
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Ahh jeez guys, I'm on my way out there next week! What a bummer. Although, while I owned my own theatrical production company here in texas, I carried liability and workers comp on my independent contractors. Basically, I explained to the show owners, that this was for THEIR protection in case they were hurt. I still sold shows. Still, it's a pain in the neck.

July 21st, 2004, 03:52 PM	#193
Dennis Vogel Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 409	Re: New gotcha for California business <<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : Had an opportunity to talk with the local State Senator about this surprise. He knew nothing about it even though he heads up the Finance Committee.-->>> Maybe it's just me but I'd be as concerned about this as the new insurance requirement. Did you ask him why he isn't doing his job? Dennis Vogel

July 22nd, 2004, 11:14 PM	#194
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	I don't think any one person can be aware of all of the legislation and laws in California. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

July 22nd, 2004, 11:28 PM	#195
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	this is very interesting thread, the only way to fight this legislation is through the courts, prove its un-justifiable...i bet your senator is in bed with the insurance companies, as this is the least friendly small business law i have seen in a long time... the only thought i have is does this law apply to all california business or all business doing business in california? maybe setting up nevada certificate might help...