Would this bother you? at DVinfo.net

Kell Smith · December 1st, 2007, 03:32 PM

Ok, first off, I know I"m broke and need the work so I'll probably do this.
But as a matter of principle, would this bother you?

A friend of mine is a musician who has been practicing with a group of women who are going to do a show at a bar - so they are not a band except for the night for a show or two. (They may even be a group of women doing individual performances as well, not sure).

My friend offered to pay me to come in and get some video of just her she can put on her website.

The person who organized the show - the 'band leader' if you will, said that the only way she would authorize that is if I got ALL the women, and she demanded a free copy as a condition. The bar itself is absolutely fine with the filming. Apparently she has said that if it weren't for her organizing the show, there would be nothing to film.

She wants me to sign a bunch of waivers for each of the women - or get them to sign - not sure what for or the details so I will need to call her for that. That's not really a problem.

I do need the money, and I will probably do it as beggars can't be choosers right now, but that really ticked me off. I'm considering declining and simply filming my friend at her next gig in a week or so.

Am I wrong?

Brian Luce · December 1st, 2007, 04:03 PM

I'd do it. shoot 2 hours of your friend and 5 seconds for each of the other members. You had more footage of the other members but your "Nano gamma correction filters fresnelized from the photonic aftereffects" and the footage got destroyed.

Kell Smith · December 1st, 2007, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Luce

I'd do it. shoot 2 hours of your friend and 5 seconds for each of the other members. You had more footage of the other members but your "Nano gamma correction filters fresnelized from the photonic aftereffects" and the footage got destroyed.

lol - that cat ate my tape again! Darn it!

I'ts not giving a free copy that I mind, it's more the way it was demanded as a condition. Also, she's asking me to do work I would not otherwise be doing - to shoot and edit the rest of the band, for free. I might have considered that if it had not been pitched to me so rudely.

part of it is I'm pretty desparate for the money though.

Martin Pauly · December 1st, 2007, 04:15 PM

Kell,

would it bother me? Sure, but I'd just talk to your friend and determine what would help her more: a video of the first event (with the other girls) or another recording later. If this upcoming gig is a promising event (promising as in providing good footage and sound to promote her as a musician), I'd do it. I would create two different videos then - the one your friend needs and the one the other girls want. Guess which one I'd put more effort into...

As a side note, I don't know what specifically your friend is planning to do with the video, but it might look more interesting anyway if you can see everybody that plays the music...

- Martin

Pete Bauer · December 1st, 2007, 05:32 PM

Free opinion; ya gets what ya pays for with it...

A free copy for the band members is free advertising for you; that's a good thing. But there's probably little reason to invest your time and risk your gear to do it without a contract that you're happy with. And in that, the band leader is one ahead of you because she obviously realizes that in regard to HER interests.

Maybe the style/rudeness would have put me off too, but it's easy for me to put aside since I wasn't there...perhaps I might respect that she's serious about what she's doing and is knowledgeable enough to protect HER interests. Get one ahead and do up a fair contract before she asks for your signature on something you don't like.

If I really wanted to do this, my style would be to write a release that protects my interests -- in this case full ownership and derivative use of the original footage -- and also gives the band members some usage of a finished product which sounds like what they want. Make it a win-win contract in the case that "real money" should later get involved. If you search around DVinfo and the 'net in general, you'll find a wide variety of performance releases, etc.

Of course, if they are playing someone else's music rather than their own entirely original works, that's a much more complicated matter and just speaking for very cautious me, I wouldn't touch it without an IP attorney involved.

BTW, Kell AND the many others who haven't done so, PLEASE do us admins a favor and put your real location (city and state or province in N.A., or city and country in other areas) in your profile. Doesn't seem like a big deal, but is a requirement of membership on DVinfo. Thanks.

Meryem Ersoz · December 1st, 2007, 05:53 PM

my first advice: decline and film your friend at her next gig.

you and only you should decide when you are giving away your services for free. not a bully.

if you do pursue this as a business, you will find that setting good boundaries with your clients will be an important part of running your business. you might as well start that right here, right now.

if you can get her to agree to purchase your services, even for a small fee, that would be ideal. make it inexpensive, and it might make a beginning portfolio piece. or offer to do each artist for the same amount that your friend is paying, and see if they are willing to pay for their own images of themselves. that could add up, as well. it does seem pretty unfair to your friend (who is your actual client) to make your friend pay and to be doing the same work for the others for free.

Jon Fairhurst · December 1st, 2007, 06:43 PM

One thing about the human mind is that we take the written word more seriously than the spoken word.

Imagine that you're in a public park and some guy demands that you get off the grass. You question it - until he shows you a "Keep Off The Grass" sign.

So... Draw up a price/policy sheet. Format it nicely. Print it. Hand it to them. Then maybe you get the gig on your terms - the best of all worlds.

Nathan Quattrini · December 1st, 2007, 07:04 PM

I`d say go and film her. She offered to pay she gets the service. If the other band mates want a full video, have them each pay as much as your friend. Fair is fair. That puts the ball in their park. If they decline to pay, accept your friends job and go film her. No one can stop you from filming an open performance unless they have a contract with the venue stating such, and I highly doubt thats the case.

Dennis Murphy · December 1st, 2007, 07:06 PM

Yep, that would bother me. I wouldn't do the job myself unless I could swing the deal back my way to an acceptable degree.
I'm just reading between the lines here, but it doesn't seem like it's a huge paying job? A little bit of money doesn't cover the cost for carrying resentment around and the lack of fun that those conditions impose upon the whole arrangement.

"It's better to die on your feet than live life on your knees."

Kell Smith · December 2nd, 2007, 12:51 AM

Thanks everyone
I didn't end up going due to other circumstances. So it all worked out. Thanks =)

December 1st, 2007, 03:32 PM	#1
Kell Smith Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 436	Would this bother you? Ok, first off, I know I"m broke and need the work so I'll probably do this. But as a matter of principle, would this bother you? A friend of mine is a musician who has been practicing with a group of women who are going to do a show at a bar - so they are not a band except for the night for a show or two. (They may even be a group of women doing individual performances as well, not sure). My friend offered to pay me to come in and get some video of just her she can put on her website. The person who organized the show - the 'band leader' if you will, said that the only way she would authorize that is if I got ALL the women, and she demanded a free copy as a condition. The bar itself is absolutely fine with the filming. Apparently she has said that if it weren't for her organizing the show, there would be nothing to film. She wants me to sign a bunch of waivers for each of the women - or get them to sign - not sure what for or the details so I will need to call her for that. That's not really a problem. I do need the money, and I will probably do it as beggars can't be choosers right now, but that really ticked me off. I'm considering declining and simply filming my friend at her next gig in a week or so. Am I wrong? Last edited by Kell Smith; December 1st, 2007 at 04:04 PM.

December 1st, 2007, 04:15 PM	#4
Martin Pauly Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Cedar Rapids, IA Posts: 563	Kell, would it bother me? Sure, but I'd just talk to your friend and determine what would help her more: a video of the first event (with the other girls) or another recording later. If this upcoming gig is a promising event (promising as in providing good footage and sound to promote her as a musician), I'd do it. I would create two different videos then - the one your friend needs and the one the other girls want. Guess which one I'd put more effort into... As a side note, I don't know what specifically your friend is planning to do with the video, but it might look more interesting anyway if you can see everybody that plays the music... - Martin __________________ Martin Pauly

December 1st, 2007, 05:32 PM	#5
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Free opinion; ya gets what ya pays for with it... A free copy for the band members is free advertising for you; that's a good thing. But there's probably little reason to invest your time and risk your gear to do it without a contract that you're happy with. And in that, the band leader is one ahead of you because she obviously realizes that in regard to HER interests. Maybe the style/rudeness would have put me off too, but it's easy for me to put aside since I wasn't there...perhaps I might respect that she's serious about what she's doing and is knowledgeable enough to protect HER interests. Get one ahead and do up a fair contract before she asks for your signature on something you don't like. If I really wanted to do this, my style would be to write a release that protects my interests -- in this case full ownership and derivative use of the original footage -- and also gives the band members some usage of a finished product which sounds like what they want. Make it a win-win contract in the case that "real money" should later get involved. If you search around DVinfo and the 'net in general, you'll find a wide variety of performance releases, etc. Of course, if they are playing someone else's music rather than their own entirely original works, that's a much more complicated matter and just speaking for very cautious me, I wouldn't touch it without an IP attorney involved. BTW, Kell AND the many others who haven't done so, PLEASE do us admins a favor and put your real location (city and state or province in N.A., or city and country in other areas) in your profile. Doesn't seem like a big deal, but is a requirement of membership on DVinfo. Thanks. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

December 1st, 2007, 06:43 PM	#7
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	One thing about the human mind is that we take the written word more seriously than the spoken word. Imagine that you're in a public park and some guy demands that you get off the grass. You question it - until he shows you a "Keep Off The Grass" sign. So... Draw up a price/policy sheet. Format it nicely. Print it. Hand it to them. Then maybe you get the gig on your terms - the best of all worlds. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

December 1st, 2007, 07:04 PM	#8
Nathan Quattrini Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Warwick, Rhode Island Posts: 740	I`d say go and film her. She offered to pay she gets the service. If the other band mates want a full video, have them each pay as much as your friend. Fair is fair. That puts the ball in their park. If they decline to pay, accept your friends job and go film her. No one can stop you from filming an open performance unless they have a contract with the venue stating such, and I highly doubt thats the case. __________________ Cinematography Site

December 1st, 2007, 04:03 PM	#2
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	I'd do it. shoot 2 hours of your friend and 5 seconds for each of the other members. You had more footage of the other members but your "Nano gamma correction filters fresnelized from the photonic aftereffects" and the footage got destroyed.

December 1st, 2007, 05:53 PM	#6
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	my first advice: decline and film your friend at her next gig. you and only you should decide when you are giving away your services for free. not a bully. if you do pursue this as a business, you will find that setting good boundaries with your clients will be an important part of running your business. you might as well start that right here, right now. if you can get her to agree to purchase your services, even for a small fee, that would be ideal. make it inexpensive, and it might make a beginning portfolio piece. or offer to do each artist for the same amount that your friend is paying, and see if they are willing to pay for their own images of themselves. that could add up, as well. it does seem pretty unfair to your friend (who is your actual client) to make your friend pay and to be doing the same work for the others for free.

December 1st, 2007, 07:06 PM	#9
Dennis Murphy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Whangarei, New Zealand Posts: 396	Yep, that would bother me. I wouldn't do the job myself unless I could swing the deal back my way to an acceptable degree. I'm just reading between the lines here, but it doesn't seem like it's a huge paying job? A little bit of money doesn't cover the cost for carrying resentment around and the lack of fun that those conditions impose upon the whole arrangement. "It's better to die on your feet than live life on your knees."

December 2nd, 2007, 12:51 AM	#10
Kell Smith Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 436	Thanks everyone I didn't end up going due to other circumstances. So it all worked out. Thanks =)