Live Streaming and Recording at the Same Time at DVinfo.net

Jeremy Gadd · October 9th, 2017, 03:18 PM

I need some urgent advice as I have just under 2 weeks to go until I film a conference that they now want live streamed and I don't have the right equipment to do this.

I will be using 2 HD cameras, both have HDMI and SDI out. I will also be using the audio feed from the PA desk or a wireless Lavalier mic for the person speaking. I have looked at vMix, Wirecast and a hardware option, like BMD Web Presenter. As in previous years I have just filmed the conference for later editing I would like to find a solution that allows me to stream live AND also be able to record the 2 cameras and the audio source to separate tracks within an editing program (I have GV Edius and Adobe Premiere). I know I will be recording direct to SD cards within the cameras and to a Tascam recorder for the external audio, but I would dearly love to be able to edit and tweak the live streamed version later to save post production time. I also know it is possible with some of the solutions I have looked at to record the mix to an SD card or to hard disc, but to be clear I want to be able to edit a multicamera timeline later, not just a mixdown.

Cheers.

Jeff Pulera · October 9th, 2017, 03:41 PM

vMix would work well. They offer a free 60-day trial which is a full-version, no watermarks or anything.

Would recommend a Core i7 PC with at least 16GB RAM, decent video card like nVidia, and large fast storage for video recording (not the C: drive).

You will need a dual input card, such as Magewell with 2 HDMI inputs.

Magewell - Pro Capture Dual HDMI

Thanks

Jeremy Gadd · October 9th, 2017, 03:49 PM

Thanks. Have i7-6500 laptop 2.50ghz with 8 GB RAM, Windows 10 and 1 TB USB3 drive for files. Do Magewell do USB3 cards as it's a laptop I have. I also see that vMix has a MultiCorder for recording the separate audio and video streams, but from what I read it seems like that's just an MP4 version of each camera/audio. In that sense, it's just the same as what I am recording on the SD cards of my cameras and audio recorder.

I came across what seemed like the perfect solution at www.myslingstudio.com, which has a plug in for Adobe Premiere that allows you to "Easily export your footage from a single storage device to Adobe Premiere Pro CC and Apple Final Cut Pro X, which automatically time-aligns your files so you can begin editing without having to spend hours in post-production setup time.". Problem is THEY DON'T SHIP TO THE UK!!!

Craig Seeman · October 9th, 2017, 07:00 PM

Wirecast is cross platform. On Mac it'll do a ProRes recording. On Windows MJPEG. Magewell HDMI or SDI to USB3 devices certainly work. Wirecast will also do ISO recording of each camera, again ProRes on Mac or MJPEG on Windows. No need to record H.264 MP4.

Gabe Strong · October 10th, 2017, 12:54 AM

I've done exactly what you are talking about with Wirecast. My laptop might be slightly higher specced than yours.
2.8ghz i7 (quad core) with 16GB of Ram. Easy to do.

Jeremy Gadd · October 10th, 2017, 01:13 AM

When you say that you've done exactly what I am talking about with Wirecast, do you mean that you are able to record a multi camera sync for later editing? This is what I am really after so I can stream live and record it with the option to edit EACH track of the multicam stream, NOT a mixdown. As far as I can see, this SlingShot bit of kit is the only one that does this in Adobe Premiere, but I cannot buy it as I'm not in the US.

Maybe I'm not understanding the terminology. In my mind when I hear ISO I think of exporting a video file as an .iso file for DVD/Blu-ray burning. Is ISO referring to something different in Wirecast?

Donald McPherson · October 10th, 2017, 05:35 AM

Am I missing something. Why not just stream using HDMI or SDI and record in camera at the same time for later edit in Premiere.

Jeremy Gadd · October 10th, 2017, 05:37 AM

Yes, it's because I want to use 2 cameras and an audio feed from the PA desk (XLR out probably).

Jeremy Gadd · October 10th, 2017, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donald McPherson

Am I missing something. Why not just stream using HDMI or SDI and record in camera at the same time for later edit in Premiere.

Yes, it's because I want to use 2 cameras and an audio feed from the PA desk (XLR out probably). It will be recording in camera for later edit but as it's a whole weekend conference with about 20 sessions I was hoping to live stream and mix cameras, in a sense giving me a more or less finished version so that I have less editing later.

Donald McPherson · October 10th, 2017, 07:51 AM

In that case why not put it through an Atoms recorder with passthrough input and output.

Craig Seeman · October 10th, 2017, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Gadd

When you say that you've done exactly what I am talking about with Wirecast, do you mean that you are able to record a multi camera sync for later editing? This is what I am really after so I can stream live and record it with the option to edit EACH track of the multicam stream, NOT a mixdown. As far as I can see, this SlingShot bit of kit is the only one that does this in Adobe Premiere, but I cannot buy it as I'm not in the US.

Maybe I'm not understanding the terminology. In my mind when I hear ISO I think of exporting a video file as an .iso file for DVD/Blu-ray burning. Is ISO referring to something different in Wirecast?

ISO is a term for ISOLATED camera. In addition to the live switched stream (and switched recording if you like) you can record the individual cameras as well in ProRes (Mac) or MJPEG (Windows). The codecs are significant because they require much less CPU use than H.264 MP4 recordings. They can go straight into your NLE after you're down as they require very little CPU to encode/decode. For multicamera ISO recording it's good to have either an external RAID or SSD because the amount of data you're pushing through though.

Bruce Dempsey · October 10th, 2017, 12:33 PM

I use a Cerevo Livewedge into which a plugged 4 hdmi cameras. The livewedge can switch between the cameras irrespective of formats, frame rates etc and perform other video mixing functions as well, the output is streamed via ethernet port at 720p and I use an inexpensive zidoo x8 to record 1080p from the device's hdmi output port

Seth Bloombaum · October 11th, 2017, 09:35 AM

It looks like you’re hoping to go from 0 to full speed on your first live streaming project.

Three suggestions:
SIMPLIFY. If recording at the cameras is working for you, why load up your laptop with additional tasks? Streaming is a high-level and intensive task for any laptop, and yours may or may not handle ISO recording AND streaming. Wired ethernet for your stream upload, not WIFI.

TEST. Specs and such only tell part of the story. If it works with all cameras in your shop, while streaming to the server, it may continue to work for your event, except...

DON’T ASSUME that the venue upload speed and consistent performance over the hours of the event will just work. You need to ask questions of the local IT/network staff, the first question to ask is “Are you the right person to talk to about this? Who actually provisions your network and connectivity?” You need wired ethernet for your stream upload, not WIFI. You need dedicated bandwidth, not shared.

The testing I’m suggesting in preparation for live streaming takes hours and hours. There are many moving parts that have to work together for live streaming to work. The many moving parts mean many potential points of failure. It’s LIVE, that’s different, it’s not just stressful, you only get one chance at it.

Steven Digges · October 12th, 2017, 09:12 AM

+1 on everything Seth said. Especially about going with a hard wire. For this gig wireless falls into the "just because you can...does not mean you should category". Do no risk this show on wifi.

I have done a ton of these. You need to think in terms of signal flow from beginning to end. And you have two end results, one live, one recorded. It sounds to me like you may not fully understand live switching, program feed recording, and ISO backups.

There are three major potential failures here. They are pretty easy to avoid but they still happen a lot. One: The live stream fails. Two: The video record fails. Three: You come away with crap audio records.

The answer is fail safe backup systems. Broadcast: have a secondary system in place. Even if that one is wireless or a phone based signal. Have something to go to no matter what, the show can not go dark. Video record: Regardless of what CPU based solution you use to switch and record to media still run cards in the cameras. I know two days is a lot of cards. Hopefully they will never even be used, but, if TSHTF they will save you. They are your fail safe. Audio: This fail is my personal favorite because it is unthinkable to me that it happens.....but it DOES. The audio forum is littered with threads that say "Dude, help, I have NO audio from a live event!" Again, the answer is back up the audio records. I do understand why bad records happen. I do not understand anyone coming away with no usable audio.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Edit: Jeremy, I just reread this post several hours later. I do not mean to sound forceful or snarky but sometimes I do. I bang out responses in the middle of my work day...it shows..........

Gabe Strong · October 12th, 2017, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Gadd

When you say that you've done exactly what I am talking about with Wirecast, do you mean that you are able to record a multi camera sync for later editing? This is what I am really after so I can stream live and record it with the option to edit EACH track of the multicam stream, NOT a mixdown. As far as I can see, this SlingShot bit of kit is the only one that does this in Adobe Premiere, but I cannot buy it as I'm not in the US.

Maybe I'm not understanding the terminology. In my mind when I hear ISO I think of exporting a video file as an .iso file for DVD/Blu-ray burning. Is ISO referring to something different in Wirecast?

ISO in Wirecast refers to the exact same thing as when you are using other live broadcasting
gear such as a Sony Anycast or NewTek Tricaster. ISO means 'Isolated camera'. It's a 'clean'
feed without any of the lower thirds or other graphics you might insert into the live cast. Recording
an ISO feed is a pretty well known and understood term in the live TV (and web) broadcast world.
It has nothing to do with an .iso file. It also has nothing to do with the ISO (or International
Standards Organization's) light sensitivity rating on a camera. Honestly, not trying to be rude,
but if you don't even know some of the more basic things with live streaming, I'm not sure that
you'd want to jump into doing something this complicated as your first job. Maybe you
could pull it off fine, but live streaming is a whole different beast to typical production and post.

October 9th, 2017, 03:18 PM	#1
Jeremy Gadd New Boot Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Newry Posts: 21	Live Streaming and Recording at the Same Time I need some urgent advice as I have just under 2 weeks to go until I film a conference that they now want live streamed and I don't have the right equipment to do this. I will be using 2 HD cameras, both have HDMI and SDI out. I will also be using the audio feed from the PA desk or a wireless Lavalier mic for the person speaking. I have looked at vMix, Wirecast and a hardware option, like BMD Web Presenter. As in previous years I have just filmed the conference for later editing I would like to find a solution that allows me to stream live AND also be able to record the 2 cameras and the audio source to separate tracks within an editing program (I have GV Edius and Adobe Premiere). I know I will be recording direct to SD cards within the cameras and to a Tascam recorder for the external audio, but I would dearly love to be able to edit and tweak the live streamed version later to save post production time. I also know it is possible with some of the solutions I have looked at to record the mix to an SD card or to hard disc, but to be clear I want to be able to edit a multicamera timeline later, not just a mixdown. Cheers.

October 9th, 2017, 03:41 PM	#2
Jeff Pulera Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Milwaukee WI Posts: 691	Re: Live Streaming and Recording at the Same Time vMix would work well. They offer a free 60-day trial which is a full-version, no watermarks or anything. Would recommend a Core i7 PC with at least 16GB RAM, decent video card like nVidia, and large fast storage for video recording (not the C: drive). You will need a dual input card, such as Magewell with 2 HDMI inputs. Magewell - Pro Capture Dual HDMI Thanks __________________ Jeff Pulera Safe Harbor Computers

October 9th, 2017, 03:49 PM	#3
Jeremy Gadd New Boot Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Newry Posts: 21	Re: Live Streaming and Recording at the Same Time Thanks. Have i7-6500 laptop 2.50ghz with 8 GB RAM, Windows 10 and 1 TB USB3 drive for files. Do Magewell do USB3 cards as it's a laptop I have. I also see that vMix has a MultiCorder for recording the separate audio and video streams, but from what I read it seems like that's just an MP4 version of each camera/audio. In that sense, it's just the same as what I am recording on the SD cards of my cameras and audio recorder. I came across what seemed like the perfect solution at www.myslingstudio.com, which has a plug in for Adobe Premiere that allows you to "Easily export your footage from a single storage device to Adobe Premiere Pro CC and Apple Final Cut Pro X, which automatically time-aligns your files so you can begin editing without having to spend hours in post-production setup time.". Problem is THEY DON'T SHIP TO THE UK!!!

October 9th, 2017, 07:00 PM	#4
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Re: Live Streaming and Recording at the Same Time Wirecast is cross platform. On Mac it'll do a ProRes recording. On Windows MJPEG. Magewell HDMI or SDI to USB3 devices certainly work. Wirecast will also do ISO recording of each camera, again ProRes on Mac or MJPEG on Windows. No need to record H.264 MP4.

October 10th, 2017, 12:54 AM	#5
Gabe Strong Major Player Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 814	Re: Live Streaming and Recording at the Same Time I've done exactly what you are talking about with Wirecast. My laptop might be slightly higher specced than yours. 2.8ghz i7 (quad core) with 16GB of Ram. Easy to do.

October 10th, 2017, 01:13 AM	#6
Jeremy Gadd New Boot Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Newry Posts: 21	Re: Live Streaming and Recording at the Same Time When you say that you've done exactly what I am talking about with Wirecast, do you mean that you are able to record a multi camera sync for later editing? This is what I am really after so I can stream live and record it with the option to edit EACH track of the multicam stream, NOT a mixdown. As far as I can see, this SlingShot bit of kit is the only one that does this in Adobe Premiere, but I cannot buy it as I'm not in the US. Maybe I'm not understanding the terminology. In my mind when I hear ISO I think of exporting a video file as an .iso file for DVD/Blu-ray burning. Is ISO referring to something different in Wirecast?

October 10th, 2017, 05:35 AM	#7
Donald McPherson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Aberdeen Scotland Posts: 815	Re: Live Streaming and Recording at the Same Time Am I missing something. Why not just stream using HDMI or SDI and record in camera at the same time for later edit in Premiere. __________________ A little knowledge goes a long way but not long enough.

October 10th, 2017, 05:37 AM	#8
Jeremy Gadd New Boot Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Newry Posts: 21	Re: Live Streaming and Recording at the Same Time Yes, it's because I want to use 2 cameras and an audio feed from the PA desk (XLR out probably).

October 10th, 2017, 07:51 AM	#10
Donald McPherson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Aberdeen Scotland Posts: 815	Re: Live Streaming and Recording at the Same Time In that case why not put it through an Atoms recorder with passthrough input and output. __________________ A little knowledge goes a long way but not long enough.

October 10th, 2017, 12:33 PM	#12
Bruce Dempsey Major Player Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Atlantic Coast Canada Posts: 599	Re: Live Streaming and Recording at the Same Time I use a Cerevo Livewedge into which a plugged 4 hdmi cameras. The livewedge can switch between the cameras irrespective of formats, frame rates etc and perform other video mixing functions as well, the output is streamed via ethernet port at 720p and I use an inexpensive zidoo x8 to record 1080p from the device's hdmi output port

October 11th, 2017, 09:35 AM	#13
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	Re: Live Streaming and Recording at the Same Time It looks like you’re hoping to go from 0 to full speed on your first live streaming project. Three suggestions: SIMPLIFY. If recording at the cameras is working for you, why load up your laptop with additional tasks? Streaming is a high-level and intensive task for any laptop, and yours may or may not handle ISO recording AND streaming. Wired ethernet for your stream upload, not WIFI. TEST. Specs and such only tell part of the story. If it works with all cameras in your shop, while streaming to the server, it may continue to work for your event, except... DON’T ASSUME that the venue upload speed and consistent performance over the hours of the event will just work. You need to ask questions of the local IT/network staff, the first question to ask is “Are you the right person to talk to about this? Who actually provisions your network and connectivity?” You need wired ethernet for your stream upload, not WIFI. You need dedicated bandwidth, not shared. The testing I’m suggesting in preparation for live streaming takes hours and hours. There are many moving parts that have to work together for live streaming to work. The many moving parts mean many potential points of failure. It’s LIVE, that’s different, it’s not just stressful, you only get one chance at it. __________________ 30 years of pro media production. Vegas user since 1.0. Webcaster since 1997. Freelancer since 2000. College instructor since 2001.

October 12th, 2017, 09:12 AM	#14
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Live Streaming and Recording at the Same Time +1 on everything Seth said. Especially about going with a hard wire. For this gig wireless falls into the "just because you can...does not mean you should category". Do no risk this show on wifi. I have done a ton of these. You need to think in terms of signal flow from beginning to end. And you have two end results, one live, one recorded. It sounds to me like you may not fully understand live switching, program feed recording, and ISO backups. There are three major potential failures here. They are pretty easy to avoid but they still happen a lot. One: The live stream fails. Two: The video record fails. Three: You come away with crap audio records. The answer is fail safe backup systems. Broadcast: have a secondary system in place. Even if that one is wireless or a phone based signal. Have something to go to no matter what, the show can not go dark. Video record: Regardless of what CPU based solution you use to switch and record to media still run cards in the cameras. I know two days is a lot of cards. Hopefully they will never even be used, but, if TSHTF they will save you. They are your fail safe. Audio: This fail is my personal favorite because it is unthinkable to me that it happens.....but it DOES. The audio forum is littered with threads that say "Dude, help, I have NO audio from a live event!" Again, the answer is back up the audio records. I do understand why bad records happen. I do not understand anyone coming away with no usable audio. Kind Regards, Steve Edit: Jeremy, I just reread this post several hours later. I do not mean to sound forceful or snarky but sometimes I do. I bang out responses in the middle of my work day...it shows.......... __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up! Last edited by Steven Digges; October 12th, 2017 at 11:26 PM.