Question about two cameras

Dave Halliday · January 14th, 2007, 01:39 PM

you're comparing apples to oranges. All of the DSLR cams have sensor sizes that are *close* to 35mm. APS-C which is the Canon size is close to 30mm. The consumer or prosumer non-DSLR cams are going to have consumer-sized sensors--approx 1/3" to 1/2". No comparison as far as Depth of field and latitude are concerned.

Heath McKnight · January 14th, 2007, 01:45 PM

Gotcha, thanks.

hwm

Boyd Ostroff · January 14th, 2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Halliday

The consumer or prosumer non-DSLR cams are going to have consumer-sized sensors--approx 1/3" to 1/2".

Actually my Nikon Coolpix 5700 has a 2/3" CCD...

Boyd Ostroff · January 14th, 2007, 01:59 PM

OK, maybe I'm not completely "getting it" when it comes to DSLR's. I was in Circuit City today so I just played around a little with the well-worn floor models. None of the Nikon's showed an image on the LCD while in camera mode, which I guess makes sense because the mirror is blocking the CCD.

So I tried locking the mirror up on the D80. When I did that, nothing worked on the camera at all. I was assuming that this would let you use the camera like one of the consumer cameras and see the image on the CCD. Guess I was wrong about that?

One of my concerns with a DSLR is that I like to take photos of our performance out in the audience, and the mirror/shutter noise on a film SLR is not acceptable for that. This is one of the nice things about using a digital camera.... it's silent. Can any of the DSLR's operate in "silent mode"?

Also (maybe this has something to do with the condition of the Circuit City display models) the image in the D50's viewfinder was considerably dimmer than what I saw on the D80 and D40. The D40 and D50 had the same cheap 18mm-55mm (I think) lenses so I don't think that was the problem. The D80 had a cheap 18-135mm lens IIRC. I was really not impressed by these lenses and this makes me think that it would be a big advantage to use the old manual Nikon optics on a DSLR.

Rainer Hoffmann · January 14th, 2007, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

So I tried locking the mirror up on the D80. When I did that, nothing worked on the camera at all. I was assuming that this would let you use the camera like one of the consumer cameras and see the image on the CCD. Guess I was wrong about that?

Well, I'm afraid you are wrong ;-) There is still the shutter that blocks the CCD or CMOS sensor, respectively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

One of my concerns with a DSLR is that I like to take photos of our performance out in the audience, and the mirror/shutter noise on a film SLR is not acceptable for that. This is one of the nice things about using a digital camera.... it's silent. Can any of the DSLR's operate in "silent mode"?

No, It can't. There is still the shutter noise. However, a DSLR doesn't have the noise caused by advancing the film and therefore should be somewhat less noisy than a film SLR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

Also (maybe this has something to do with the condition of the Circuit City display models) the image in the D50's viewfinder was considerably dimmer than what I saw on the D80 and D40. The D40 and D50 had the same cheap 18mm-55mm (I think) lenses so I don't think that was the problem. The D80 had a cheap 18-135mm lens IIRC.

This is a somewhat more complex problem. Firstly, the cameras with an APS-C sized sensor have a dimmer viewfinder image than full frame (D)SLRs just because of the smaller viewfinder. Secondly, the "less expensive" DSLRs use a system of mirrors inside the viewfinder instead of a pentaprism (simply because a pentaprism is more expensive) and the mirrors seem to result in a considerably dimmer viewfinder ( I don't know the reason for this, but somebody else may able to explain it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

I was really not impressed by these lenses and this makes me think that it would be a big advantage to use the old manual Nikon optics on a DSLR.

The kit lenses that come with the entry level DSLRs usually are not the best lenses available (to put it mildly). Though you certainly could use the old manual Nikon lenses, you should be prepared, that not all of the camera functions are supported when you use the manual lenses. For example, some of the more amateur camera bodies don't support automatic exposure if used with the manual lenses. So, before you decide on a camera body, make sure, which functions this body supports and which functions you need.

(Sorry for my english, but when it comes to technical details like this...)

Boyd Ostroff · January 14th, 2007, 05:14 PM

Wow, thanks a lot Rainer. I don't see any problems with your English whatsoever, those were very clear explanations!

Obviously I need to get to a camera store where someone can answer my dumb questions in person... looks like I need to stop by B&H the next time I visit NYC :-)

Heath McKnight · January 14th, 2007, 05:31 PM

I keep forgetting B&H is big in photo equipment, too. I'm about to get a new job, so after I take care of some expenses from my film, I'll likely buy the Canon Rebel.

heath

Rainer Hoffmann · January 15th, 2007, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

Wow, thanks a lot Rainer. I don't see any problems with your English whatsoever, those were very clear explanations!

Thanks, Boyd, that's very kind of you.

One more thing: some of the Olympus DSLRs do have what's called a live preview on the monitor. So if this is something you would like, you should probably have a look at the Olympus range of DSLRs.

Gints Klimanis · January 19th, 2007, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

So I tried locking the mirror up on the D80. When I did that, nothing worked on the camera at all. I was assuming that this would let you use the camera like one of the consumer cameras and see the image on the CCD. Guess I was wrong about that?.

Yes, that is unfortunately the way they work. I would also expect a live preview during mirror lockup, but I think the main problem is that the subject is no longer reaching the autofocus mechanism. Hence, there is no focusing going on during mirror lockup. You think that would also not be a problem for many customers, but the deal is that SLR customers just want the same features they had on film cameras. It takes a lot of video-minded customers to change thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

Can any of the DSLR's operate in "silent mode"? .

Not Canon or Nikon. I'm willing to pay for an "electronic" shutter, but the same problem remains: the focusing and metering hardware and viewfinder get the light until it is completely diverted to the CCD. This setup enables the camera to be as sensitive as possible.

The solution is to buy a camera sound "blimp", but again, much of the noise travels through the lens. In your situation, I think a box filled with Auralex and lined with metal or lead (dense metal that is available in plastic-sealed sheets) would take the bite out of most of the sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

Also (maybe this has something to do with the condition of the Circuit City display models) the image in the D50's viewfinder was considerably dimmer than what I saw on the D80 and D40. The D40 and D50 had the same cheap 18mm-55mm (I think) lenses so I don't think that was the problem. The D80 had a cheap 18-135mm lens IIRC. I was really not impressed by these lenses and this makes me think that it would be a big advantage to use the old manual Nikon optics on a DSLR.

You may be pleased with the bigger, brighter viewfinders on the D2 pro bodies. While you will certainly have no trouble with the "big manual" Nikon optics, keep in mind that the D40 doesn't have a screw motor and is limited to the types of lenses it can operate. Also, you will probably find yourself using the wide aperture lenses by Nikon, thus helping boost the brightness of the viewfinder. Drop some money on the best Nikon wide-aperture primes (f/1.4 to f/2) as the zoom lenses won't serve you in the theater as they are softer than the good primes even at f/2.8. Also, given the dynamic lighting in theater, shoot in RAW (compressed NEF) so you have a chance to warp or recover highlights.

Boyd Ostroff · January 19th, 2007, 10:28 AM

Thanks a lot Gints! I need to spend a little time learning about the state of the art with DSLR's. I used to do a lot of photography going back to the 1970's when I had a darkroom and a couple Nikons, but I did less and less as the years passed. Then when I got my first digital camera in 1999 I packed up all my film cameras and haven't touched on since :-)

January 14th, 2007, 01:45 PM	#17
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Gotcha, thanks. hwm __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 14th, 2007, 05:31 PM	#22
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I keep forgetting B&H is big in photo equipment, too. I'm about to get a new job, so after I take care of some expenses from my film, I'll likely buy the Canon Rebel. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 14th, 2007, 01:39 PM	#16
Dave Halliday Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Washington DC Posts: 116	you're comparing apples to oranges. All of the DSLR cams have sensor sizes that are close to 35mm. APS-C which is the Canon size is close to 30mm. The consumer or prosumer non-DSLR cams are going to have consumer-sized sensors--approx 1/3" to 1/2". No comparison as far as Depth of field and latitude are concerned.

January 14th, 2007, 01:59 PM	#19
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,801	OK, maybe I'm not completely "getting it" when it comes to DSLR's. I was in Circuit City today so I just played around a little with the well-worn floor models. None of the Nikon's showed an image on the LCD while in camera mode, which I guess makes sense because the mirror is blocking the CCD. So I tried locking the mirror up on the D80. When I did that, nothing worked on the camera at all. I was assuming that this would let you use the camera like one of the consumer cameras and see the image on the CCD. Guess I was wrong about that? One of my concerns with a DSLR is that I like to take photos of our performance out in the audience, and the mirror/shutter noise on a film SLR is not acceptable for that. This is one of the nice things about using a digital camera.... it's silent. Can any of the DSLR's operate in "silent mode"? Also (maybe this has something to do with the condition of the Circuit City display models) the image in the D50's viewfinder was considerably dimmer than what I saw on the D80 and D40. The D40 and D50 had the same cheap 18mm-55mm (I think) lenses so I don't think that was the problem. The D80 had a cheap 18-135mm lens IIRC. I was really not impressed by these lenses and this makes me think that it would be a big advantage to use the old manual Nikon optics on a DSLR.

January 14th, 2007, 05:14 PM	#21
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,801	Wow, thanks a lot Rainer. I don't see any problems with your English whatsoever, those were very clear explanations! Obviously I need to get to a camera store where someone can answer my dumb questions in person... looks like I need to stop by B&H the next time I visit NYC :-)

January 19th, 2007, 10:28 AM	#25
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,801	Thanks a lot Gints! I need to spend a little time learning about the state of the art with DSLR's. I used to do a lot of photography going back to the 1970's when I had a darkroom and a couple Nikons, but I did less and less as the years passed. Then when I got my first digital camera in 1999 I packed up all my film cameras and haven't touched on since :-)