Best digital STILL cameras? at DVinfo.net

John Garcia · July 2nd, 2003, 10:20 PM

Hmm...I know this is not DV related, but it is digital none-the-less. I appologize if anyone finds this post unappropriate for the DVinfo.net forums...

Anyways, I currently have a 5 mp Sony Cybershot 707 that ive had for a couple years now. I love this camera, and have bought every accessory available, but it cant seem to meet the demands for my print work, and is lacking in quality that I need for my projects.

What would you say is the best still digital camera out there for the money. Im looking ad a digital SLR style camera such as the Canon EOS10D. What does everyone think of these cameras? Does anyone have first hand opinions/experiences in which they would like to share?

I would appreciate some light shed on this subject. I trust my fellow dvinfo.net community members can help me out on this one.

One more thing, how much does everyone think i should sell my current camera for? Heres what i have...

Sony Cybershot DSC-F707 Digital still camera
2 Sony 128 MB memory sticks
3 Sony InfoLithium battery packs
Sony remote control for zoom and shutter
Sony External flash pack
Sony Filter pack - ND Polarizing filter and clear lens protector
Sony Memory Stick Adapter
Sony Tripod
Canon WD-58 wide angle converter
1 Tiffen 58 mm ND Circular Polarizing Filter
1 Tiffen 58 mm 6 pt star filter
Ultra knit lens cleaning cloth (supposedly the best)
Nylon Carrying case with strap and handle
Lens cleaning kit

I have all original packing and manuals...

Thanks in advance,

John

Jeff Donald · July 2nd, 2003, 10:31 PM

I have been using the Canon EOS 10D for about a month. WOW. The resolution, image quality etc. rivals medium format. I am producing 13 x 19's with the Epson 2200 that are absolutely stunning. People are shocked, they think they were shot with medium format or large format cameras.

I have advised several members on this camera and none have been disappointed to date. My best advice for starting out is buy the Canon "L" series lenses. You can see the difference with this camera. A few non "L" lenses may be substituted, depending on your shooting needs (EF 28mm - 135mm IS, 17mm - 40mm are two I would recommend). Shoot everything in RAW. Think of RAW as a digital negative. So much can be done in the RAW mode. You'll need PS 7 and the RAW plug-in. PS 8 will support RAW mode without the plug-in, but I wouldn't want to wait until the end of the year to start working in RAW.

I teach photography and would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

John Garcia · July 3rd, 2003, 12:51 AM

Awesome Jeff. Thanks for your reply. I know about the canon EOS 10D and ive heard about its capabilities. Its just good reinforcment to hear such comments about its quality.

The hard part is im only 19, and of course, funds are an issue. If I sold my current camera (as listed) I would hope to generate almost (if not enough) enough money to buy the EOS 10D body. I know the lenses are just as expensive as the body, so that would be a little problem, but at least its a start. I can save up to buy my lenses.

What else can you tell me about the EOS 10D? I know ive read about some problems and some firmware upgrades or something? Can you shed any light on this for me?

Once again, thanks for your reply. I am looking even MORE forward to getting the 10D.

Best Regards,

John Garcia

Nigel Moore · July 3rd, 2003, 12:52 AM

I have the Canon D30. I would love to upgrade to the 10D but can't really justify it (non-pro use). Even so, the output of the D30 is still beautiful.

One point, changing lenses on a digital SLR is more fraught than with film. You have to more careful not to get dirt or dust inside, otherwise it's not fun cleaning the CMOS/CCD.

John Garcia · July 3rd, 2003, 12:53 AM

wait a sec...ps 8? hmm...I have 7.0, and last I heard, I have the latest version. Am I missing something here?

Nigel Moore · July 3rd, 2003, 01:00 AM

PS7 requires an Adobe plug-in (at added cost) to support RAW natively, although there are other alternatives. I use PS6 with Yarc+ (PS6 doesn't support the Adobe RAW plug-in.)

PS8 is rumoured to natively support RAW (i.e. the plug-in will be included). Personally, I don't use RAW so much, and Yarc+ is good enough for now. But I will upgrade to PS8 (it's also supposed to support filter layers, the lack of which is what stopped me from moving to version 7).

Dylan Couper · July 3rd, 2003, 01:01 AM

*When* PS8 comes out, it will support RAW mode, which is what I think Jeff meant to say. PS8 is not out yet.

Dean Sensui · July 3rd, 2003, 02:52 AM

Jeff...

That Epson 2200 is also an important part of the equation. It's an amazingly good printer.

I have one and use a color management system with it -- and the results are nothing short of great. I'm starting to make prints from slides that I shot more than 20 years ago, prints that simply wouldn't come out otherwise.

Now with good slide scanners and Photoshop, it's possible to get prints with subtle details in highlights and shadows.

I love this digital stuff!

Dean Sensui
Base Two Productions

John Garcia · July 3rd, 2003, 03:11 AM

hey dean,

i need to talk to you more about photography. I need some pointers and tips, especially when I go into the digital SLR's such as the Canon EOS 10D. Ill shoot you an e-mail to discuss this further.

john

Chris Hurd · July 3rd, 2003, 06:12 AM

Instead of emailing Dean privately, what would you think about a public digicam forum here on DV Info? I know the subject is covered by a variety of other online message boards, but I think there's enough accumulated skills here that we could pull it off on our own.

Jeff Donald · July 3rd, 2003, 07:47 AM

Printers certainly play a key role in the determination of the quality of the final print. However, the Epson 2200 isn't the only printer that can do the job. I happen to use it because the school I teach at has one.

I own a 2 1/2 year Epson Photo Stylus 870. With the right paper it makes 8 x 10's (it's largest size) that are indistinguishable for traditional chemical based (color dyes) printing. The key is the use of 6 colors of ink and a resolution of at least 1440. Canon also has some very good printers that can do the job as well. HP makes great office printers, but they are lacking in their photo quality (at least when compared to Epson and Canon).

PS 8 is in beta right now. The anticipated release is late this fall (Nov. Dec. ?). It will include the plug-in for RAW files. The plug-in is $100. You might want to wait (and save your $100) till PS 8 is out.

RAW files, for me, is like the digital negative. The file size is about 6 mb. The biggest jpeg is only 2.5 mb. But the file is not processed by the camera (no quality lost either). I prefer to take the file into PS and process my image myself. It is more time consuming, but think of it like printing your own work.

On the topic of lenses, it is important to use the best quality lenses you can afford. The very high resolution of the 10D will make any lens defects much more readily apparent. If you're on a limited budget, I would start out with the 50mm F1.8 or the slightly better (and faster) F1.4. If you have a want a zoom to start with, I would suggest the 28mm - 135mm IS lens. Most users seem a little disappointed in the optical quality of the 24mm - 85mm and the 28mm - 105mm.

The "L" series lenses are great, but pricey. As your budget permits, try to add one or two to your arsenal. I can recommend the 400mm F5.6 L, 300mm F4 (both the IS and non), 16mm - 35mm L. Non "L" lenses worth considering are the 17mm - 40mm, and 75mm - 300mm IS.

John Garcia · July 3rd, 2003, 11:29 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Instead of emailing Dean privately, what would you think about a public digicam forum here on DV Info? I know the subject is covered by a variety of other online message boards, but I think there's enough accumulated skills here that we could pull it off on our own. -->>>

Chris, I think a digicam forum would be awesome. In my opinion, digital still photography and digital video have many similarities. Alot of the basic principals that apply for still digicams also apply for digital video cams. Video is basically still photography in motion.

I also think that the knowledge of our members within the dvinfo.net community meets, or exceeds that of other digicam forums out there.

I think it would be a good call, and we would get great participation on this wonderful subject.

Thanks for everyone’s answers to my questions. I’m still wondering though, how much would my camera package go for?

Thanks again,

John

Jeff Donald · July 3rd, 2003, 11:45 AM

I would research it on ebay, it's become sort of a standard for used equipment. You also might consider what B&H, or KEH out of Atlanta, get for it used. I really couldn't give you much of an idea of a fair market value. Sorry.

Dean Sensui · July 3rd, 2003, 11:48 AM

Chris...

A forum on digital cameras might not be too much of a stretch as I think many of us here cross the lines between still and video fairly frequently.

John...

I'd be glad to help out with info. If you'd like, drop on by the Bulletin sometime in the next week or so and I can give you a few demos on what I do with Photoshop. I'm working desk for now until another photog comes back from maternity leave. Drop me an e-mail and I can let you know what my schedule is like.

Dean Sensui
Base Two Productions

John Garcia · July 3rd, 2003, 01:33 PM

awesome. Id like to see you in action. Ill drop you an e-mail right. now. Thanks!

cool....

:-D

July 2nd, 2003, 10:20 PM	#1
John Garcia Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 199	Best digital STILL cameras? Hmm...I know this is not DV related, but it is digital none-the-less. I appologize if anyone finds this post unappropriate for the DVinfo.net forums... Anyways, I currently have a 5 mp Sony Cybershot 707 that ive had for a couple years now. I love this camera, and have bought every accessory available, but it cant seem to meet the demands for my print work, and is lacking in quality that I need for my projects. What would you say is the best still digital camera out there for the money. Im looking ad a digital SLR style camera such as the Canon EOS10D. What does everyone think of these cameras? Does anyone have first hand opinions/experiences in which they would like to share? I would appreciate some light shed on this subject. I trust my fellow dvinfo.net community members can help me out on this one. One more thing, how much does everyone think i should sell my current camera for? Heres what i have... Sony Cybershot DSC-F707 Digital still camera 2 Sony 128 MB memory sticks 3 Sony InfoLithium battery packs Sony remote control for zoom and shutter Sony External flash pack Sony Filter pack - ND Polarizing filter and clear lens protector Sony Memory Stick Adapter Sony Tripod Canon WD-58 wide angle converter 1 Tiffen 58 mm ND Circular Polarizing Filter 1 Tiffen 58 mm 6 pt star filter Ultra knit lens cleaning cloth (supposedly the best) Nylon Carrying case with strap and handle Lens cleaning kit I have all original packing and manuals... Thanks in advance, John

July 2nd, 2003, 10:31 PM	#2
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I have been using the Canon EOS 10D for about a month. WOW. The resolution, image quality etc. rivals medium format. I am producing 13 x 19's with the Epson 2200 that are absolutely stunning. People are shocked, they think they were shot with medium format or large format cameras. I have advised several members on this camera and none have been disappointed to date. My best advice for starting out is buy the Canon "L" series lenses. You can see the difference with this camera. A few non "L" lenses may be substituted, depending on your shooting needs (EF 28mm - 135mm IS, 17mm - 40mm are two I would recommend). Shoot everything in RAW. Think of RAW as a digital negative. So much can be done in the RAW mode. You'll need PS 7 and the RAW plug-in. PS 8 will support RAW mode without the plug-in, but I wouldn't want to wait until the end of the year to start working in RAW. I teach photography and would be happy to answer any questions you might have. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

July 3rd, 2003, 01:01 AM	#7
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	When PS8 comes out, it will support RAW mode, which is what I think Jeff meant to say. PS8 is not out yet. __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

July 3rd, 2003, 06:12 AM	#10
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Instead of emailing Dean privately, what would you think about a public digicam forum here on DV Info? I know the subject is covered by a variety of other online message boards, but I think there's enough accumulated skills here that we could pull it off on our own. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 3rd, 2003, 07:47 AM	#11
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Printers certainly play a key role in the determination of the quality of the final print. However, the Epson 2200 isn't the only printer that can do the job. I happen to use it because the school I teach at has one. I own a 2 1/2 year Epson Photo Stylus 870. With the right paper it makes 8 x 10's (it's largest size) that are indistinguishable for traditional chemical based (color dyes) printing. The key is the use of 6 colors of ink and a resolution of at least 1440. Canon also has some very good printers that can do the job as well. HP makes great office printers, but they are lacking in their photo quality (at least when compared to Epson and Canon). PS 8 is in beta right now. The anticipated release is late this fall (Nov. Dec. ?). It will include the plug-in for RAW files. The plug-in is $100. You might want to wait (and save your $100) till PS 8 is out. RAW files, for me, is like the digital negative. The file size is about 6 mb. The biggest jpeg is only 2.5 mb. But the file is not processed by the camera (no quality lost either). I prefer to take the file into PS and process my image myself. It is more time consuming, but think of it like printing your own work. On the topic of lenses, it is important to use the best quality lenses you can afford. The very high resolution of the 10D will make any lens defects much more readily apparent. If you're on a limited budget, I would start out with the 50mm F1.8 or the slightly better (and faster) F1.4. If you have a want a zoom to start with, I would suggest the 28mm - 135mm IS lens. Most users seem a little disappointed in the optical quality of the 24mm - 85mm and the 28mm - 105mm. The "L" series lenses are great, but pricey. As your budget permits, try to add one or two to your arsenal. I can recommend the 400mm F5.6 L, 300mm F4 (both the IS and non), 16mm - 35mm L. Non "L" lenses worth considering are the 17mm - 40mm, and 75mm - 300mm IS. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

July 3rd, 2003, 12:51 AM	#3
John Garcia Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 199	Awesome Jeff. Thanks for your reply. I know about the canon EOS 10D and ive heard about its capabilities. Its just good reinforcment to hear such comments about its quality. The hard part is im only 19, and of course, funds are an issue. If I sold my current camera (as listed) I would hope to generate almost (if not enough) enough money to buy the EOS 10D body. I know the lenses are just as expensive as the body, so that would be a little problem, but at least its a start. I can save up to buy my lenses. What else can you tell me about the EOS 10D? I know ive read about some problems and some firmware upgrades or something? Can you shed any light on this for me? Once again, thanks for your reply. I am looking even MORE forward to getting the 10D. Best Regards, John Garcia

July 3rd, 2003, 12:52 AM	#4
Nigel Moore Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 358	I have the Canon D30. I would love to upgrade to the 10D but can't really justify it (non-pro use). Even so, the output of the D30 is still beautiful. One point, changing lenses on a digital SLR is more fraught than with film. You have to more careful not to get dirt or dust inside, otherwise it's not fun cleaning the CMOS/CCD.

July 3rd, 2003, 12:53 AM	#5
John Garcia Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 199	wait a sec...ps 8? hmm...I have 7.0, and last I heard, I have the latest version. Am I missing something here?

July 3rd, 2003, 01:00 AM	#6
Nigel Moore Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 358	PS7 requires an Adobe plug-in (at added cost) to support RAW natively, although there are other alternatives. I use PS6 with Yarc+ (PS6 doesn't support the Adobe RAW plug-in.) PS8 is rumoured to natively support RAW (i.e. the plug-in will be included). Personally, I don't use RAW so much, and Yarc+ is good enough for now. But I will upgrade to PS8 (it's also supposed to support filter layers, the lack of which is what stopped me from moving to version 7).

July 3rd, 2003, 02:52 AM	#8
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	Jeff... That Epson 2200 is also an important part of the equation. It's an amazingly good printer. I have one and use a color management system with it -- and the results are nothing short of great. I'm starting to make prints from slides that I shot more than 20 years ago, prints that simply wouldn't come out otherwise. Now with good slide scanners and Photoshop, it's possible to get prints with subtle details in highlights and shadows. I love this digital stuff! Dean Sensui Base Two Productions

July 3rd, 2003, 03:11 AM	#9
John Garcia Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 199	hey dean, i need to talk to you more about photography. I need some pointers and tips, especially when I go into the digital SLR's such as the Canon EOS 10D. Ill shoot you an e-mail to discuss this further. john

July 3rd, 2003, 11:29 AM	#12
John Garcia Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 199	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Instead of emailing Dean privately, what would you think about a public digicam forum here on DV Info? I know the subject is covered by a variety of other online message boards, but I think there's enough accumulated skills here that we could pull it off on our own. -->>> Chris, I think a digicam forum would be awesome. In my opinion, digital still photography and digital video have many similarities. Alot of the basic principals that apply for still digicams also apply for digital video cams. Video is basically still photography in motion. I also think that the knowledge of our members within the dvinfo.net community meets, or exceeds that of other digicam forums out there. I think it would be a good call, and we would get great participation on this wonderful subject. Thanks for everyone’s answers to my questions. I’m still wondering though, how much would my camera package go for? Thanks again, John

July 3rd, 2003, 11:45 AM	#13
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I would research it on ebay, it's become sort of a standard for used equipment. You also might consider what B&H, or KEH out of Atlanta, get for it used. I really couldn't give you much of an idea of a fair market value. Sorry. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

July 3rd, 2003, 11:48 AM	#14
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	Chris... A forum on digital cameras might not be too much of a stretch as I think many of us here cross the lines between still and video fairly frequently. John... I'd be glad to help out with info. If you'd like, drop on by the Bulletin sometime in the next week or so and I can give you a few demos on what I do with Photoshop. I'm working desk for now until another photog comes back from maternity leave. Drop me an e-mail and I can let you know what my schedule is like. Dean Sensui Base Two Productions

July 3rd, 2003, 01:33 PM	#15
John Garcia Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 199	awesome. Id like to see you in action. Ill drop you an e-mail right. now. Thanks! cool.... :-D