Is there a top steadicam?

Jack Walker · May 18th, 2008, 07:15 PM

All is excellent!

With the JVC up to 30 pounds it seems you are kind of between systems. You need a recommendation by an pro operator (like Papert) who knows the systems, the limitations and what be overall best for your specific uses and your general needs.

All the operators I've known have owned their own systems, but I understand your operator this time doesn't. I suppose you have already discussed this him what options might be good for him. Some of the faults of some systems that can be overcome in normal situations become a roadblock with a 70 minute take.

The reason I originally was interested in this thread, but forgot to ask, was to find out what lens you are using on the HD200. Are you using the wide angle lens? the stock lens? or one of the newer lenses? I would guess you are using the wide angle lens since you are flying the camera in such a long take, but I don't know and was curious.

Regardless of what you will be doing in the future, do you know the actual weight you will be flying for the one-take project?

Back to the original question, for a short yet intensely demanding shoot, using a professional operator, it might be best to separate your general needs from this project and rent the exact type of system this time that will give you the best results. Your general needs, this project and a $20,000 budget for purchase do not seem entirely compatible.

Matt Ryan · May 18th, 2008, 07:28 PM

Jack, we will not be using a stock or additional lens. We are using the p+s technik mini35c with either a 24mm or 35mm zeiss high speed lens. The actual weight of the rig that will be flying for the one take will probably be closer to 20-25 pounds but I wanted to estimate a little higher therfore I said atleast 30. Thanks!

Jack Walker · May 18th, 2008, 07:38 PM

Very good. As someone else said above, it's very possible that for the weight you are flying and the quality of rig you need for what you are doing on this project, there isn't a reasonable purchase option for $20,000 or less.

Afton Grant · May 18th, 2008, 08:35 PM

Hi Matt,

If you are looking for the best advice in the interest of your film(s), I would suggest relieving yourself of worrying about the technical aspects of the Steadicam and just hire an owner/operator. If your shoot is indeed planned for about two days, you could hire the absolute BEST OPERATOR IN THE WORLD for far less than half that. They'd show up with their gear and operate the bajeezus out of that film. You'd still have $12-$14k left over to put elsewhere into the production of your film, and you wouldn't have a $20,000 piece of equipment sitting around taking up space after filming was complete.

I know of people that like to just buy as much of their own gear as possible thinking it'll save time/money when it comes time to shoot. While this is true in some instances, I think in the long run it is far cheaper to simply hire crew and rent only the gear you need. Chances are good if I am looking to hire the best crew, they will individually own exactly the gear I need, and can bring it along as a rental. Now, I not only have the equipment and am paying for it for only as long as I need it, but it is being operated by the person that personally knows it the best. This can only be a good thing.

Owning your own gear and bringing someone else in to use it can be hit or miss. With regards to Steadicam, I know of many operators, myself included, that simply won't use gear other than their own. Even though I know I could step into any rig and operate it, it's not the operating that would concern me. I know my equipment inside and out. I know exactly what I have and where it is. Because of this, when it comes time to solve a certain problem, I can usually do it very quickly. If I were handed an unfamiliar kit, that same problem would take much longer to solve as I would have to spend time getting to know what my tools are. I imagine this can be applied to other positions amongst the crew as well.

With regards to your film, and all respect to the operator you have in mind, I would venture to say you would have better results, and save a ton of money by just hiring a professional operator to shoot your film. The value in that would be more than just monetary.

If your interest in the equipment extends beyond this film and you would really like to consider owning a rig, take a couple thousand out of that 20, and take one of the SOA (Steadicam Operator's Association) workshops. It will be the best investment in your gear and career you could make.

Matt Ryan · May 18th, 2008, 08:47 PM

Thanks Afton, I have taken several steadicam operator workshops therefore that is why I am looking topurchase. In regard to your response the use of the steadicam will continure for atleast 4 more projects that I have lined up. As stated earlier I do dp alot of my shoots and will run the steadicam on the next few shoots. Therfore that is why I am asking advice on what the best rig for my needs now would be. I just want a list of everyones top 3 under $20,000.00 that can support 20-25 pounds. Thats all. I appreciate the concern but this is more for my use than for just this one shoot. I want to avoid renting as I will be using this for future projects and feel it would be better to own and use everyday for practice as well as paid shoots or films.
Thanks

John DeLuca · May 18th, 2008, 09:00 PM

****I just want a list of everyones top 3 under $20,000.00 that can support 20-25 pounds****

Matt-

As people have pointed out, a quality rig at that price doesn’t exist. The closest is the Tiffen Archer (supports up to 23lbs) and is 23k for just the base model. Your best bet is to save up and look around for a used Clipper. Have you joined the steadicam forum yet? They have a good used gear section. CP can probably give you the best advice on this subject.

-John

Matt Ryan · May 18th, 2008, 09:03 PM

is anyone familiar with the v-25?

Jack Walker · May 18th, 2008, 10:25 PM

In case you haven't seen it, here is Charles King's review of the V25:
http://homebuiltstabilizers.com/TheGlidecamV-25.pdf

It's 20 pages long with lots of pictures and detailed descriptions.

Since you are familiar with various rigs from your workshops, this review should be helpful in understanding the V25.

Brian Drysdale · May 19th, 2008, 12:49 PM

I'd just say that Jimmy Muro, who operated for James Cameron did Steadicam on his own feature film and said it wasn't a good idea to operate Steadicam and direct.

I did Steadicam on a couple of my shorts (one Super 16 and the other 35mm ) and doing it for any length of time just drains energy that could be put to better use as a director and you're not concentrating on the actor's performances as much has you should.

OK it's kinda fun, but for complex Steadicam shots the director should be working hard on the on screen action and tuning that rather than tuning his own complex dance with the Steadicam.

Meryem Ersoz · May 19th, 2008, 02:51 PM

http://actionproducts.ch/en/actioncam/products.html

fine swiss engineering and design...under $20K, hard to beat.

Jack Walker · May 19th, 2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meryem Ersoz

http://actionproducts.ch/en/actioncam/products.html

fine swiss engineering and design...under $20K, hard to beat.

If it's a good system, this looks like its exactly what Matt is after: Up to a 40-pound load for well under $20,000.

Jack Walker · May 19th, 2008, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meryem Ersoz

http://actionproducts.ch/en/actioncam/products.html

fine swiss engineering and design...under $20K, hard to beat.

Matt's requirements were:
1. up to 50 lb. capacity, minimum 30 lb.
2. able to fly the fully loaded HD200
3. able to fly a Red in the future
4. under $20,000

It seems this system meets all the requirements, and is geared toward a Red camera to boot. It seems to have good recommendations. Here is an article with pictures:
http://redmodz.com/stabilizers

Mind now, I have no personal knowledge of any of this.

Afton Grant · May 19th, 2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Walker

Matt's requirements were:
1. up to 50 lb. capacity, minimum 30 lb.
2. able to fly the fully loaded HD200
3. able to fly a Red in the future
4. under $20,000

It seems this system meets all the requirements, and is geared toward a Red camera to boot. It seems to have good recommendations. Here is an article with pictures:

This is a pic from a shoot just last week. It even surprised me how heavy such a small camera can quickly get once you add on all the accessories. Granted, a zoom lens is not ideal, but obviously a possibility, and one I wasn't aware of prior to showing up. You're looking at the end-of-day configuration after much tinkering with the brackets and mounts to get the weight distributed in a way that made it balance reasonably well with my sled. Beginning of the day was pushing the limits of my rig (Steadicam Master Elite). End of day was tolerable, but still silly heavy.

That 9lb body has a VERY slow metabolism. (puts on weight quickly)

Matt Ryan · May 20th, 2008, 02:53 PM

Thank you Meryem, That is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks again Jack and Afton. I appreciate everyones opinions and feedback. Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with the actionproducts the company or the rig? Thanks

Meryem Ersoz · May 21st, 2008, 08:53 AM

Their customer service has been very good. They communicate well with their customers.

The quality of the rig is excellent, and it is relatively easy to set up, balance, and get good footage in a very short span of time.

May 18th, 2008, 08:35 PM	#19
Afton Grant Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: New York, Boston Posts: 54	Hi Matt, If you are looking for the best advice in the interest of your film(s), I would suggest relieving yourself of worrying about the technical aspects of the Steadicam and just hire an owner/operator. If your shoot is indeed planned for about two days, you could hire the absolute BEST OPERATOR IN THE WORLD for far less than half that. They'd show up with their gear and operate the bajeezus out of that film. You'd still have $12-$14k left over to put elsewhere into the production of your film, and you wouldn't have a $20,000 piece of equipment sitting around taking up space after filming was complete. I know of people that like to just buy as much of their own gear as possible thinking it'll save time/money when it comes time to shoot. While this is true in some instances, I think in the long run it is far cheaper to simply hire crew and rent only the gear you need. Chances are good if I am looking to hire the best crew, they will individually own exactly the gear I need, and can bring it along as a rental. Now, I not only have the equipment and am paying for it for only as long as I need it, but it is being operated by the person that personally knows it the best. This can only be a good thing. Owning your own gear and bringing someone else in to use it can be hit or miss. With regards to Steadicam, I know of many operators, myself included, that simply won't use gear other than their own. Even though I know I could step into any rig and operate it, it's not the operating that would concern me. I know my equipment inside and out. I know exactly what I have and where it is. Because of this, when it comes time to solve a certain problem, I can usually do it very quickly. If I were handed an unfamiliar kit, that same problem would take much longer to solve as I would have to spend time getting to know what my tools are. I imagine this can be applied to other positions amongst the crew as well. With regards to your film, and all respect to the operator you have in mind, I would venture to say you would have better results, and save a ton of money by just hiring a professional operator to shoot your film. The value in that would be more than just monetary. If your interest in the equipment extends beyond this film and you would really like to consider owning a rig, take a couple thousand out of that 20, and take one of the SOA (Steadicam Operator's Association) workshops. It will be the best investment in your gear and career you could make. __________________ Afton M Grant, Steadicam Operator www.aftongrant.com \| www.steadishots.org

May 18th, 2008, 07:15 PM	#16
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	All is excellent! With the JVC up to 30 pounds it seems you are kind of between systems. You need a recommendation by an pro operator (like Papert) who knows the systems, the limitations and what be overall best for your specific uses and your general needs. All the operators I've known have owned their own systems, but I understand your operator this time doesn't. I suppose you have already discussed this him what options might be good for him. Some of the faults of some systems that can be overcome in normal situations become a roadblock with a 70 minute take. The reason I originally was interested in this thread, but forgot to ask, was to find out what lens you are using on the HD200. Are you using the wide angle lens? the stock lens? or one of the newer lenses? I would guess you are using the wide angle lens since you are flying the camera in such a long take, but I don't know and was curious. Regardless of what you will be doing in the future, do you know the actual weight you will be flying for the one-take project? Back to the original question, for a short yet intensely demanding shoot, using a professional operator, it might be best to separate your general needs from this project and rent the exact type of system this time that will give you the best results. Your general needs, this project and a $20,000 budget for purchase do not seem entirely compatible.

May 18th, 2008, 07:28 PM	#17
Matt Ryan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Hollywood, CA. Posts: 110	Jack, we will not be using a stock or additional lens. We are using the p+s technik mini35c with either a 24mm or 35mm zeiss high speed lens. The actual weight of the rig that will be flying for the one take will probably be closer to 20-25 pounds but I wanted to estimate a little higher therfore I said atleast 30. Thanks!

May 18th, 2008, 07:38 PM	#18
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	Very good. As someone else said above, it's very possible that for the weight you are flying and the quality of rig you need for what you are doing on this project, there isn't a reasonable purchase option for $20,000 or less.

May 18th, 2008, 08:47 PM	#20
Matt Ryan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Hollywood, CA. Posts: 110	Thanks Afton, I have taken several steadicam operator workshops therefore that is why I am looking topurchase. In regard to your response the use of the steadicam will continure for atleast 4 more projects that I have lined up. As stated earlier I do dp alot of my shoots and will run the steadicam on the next few shoots. Therfore that is why I am asking advice on what the best rig for my needs now would be. I just want a list of everyones top 3 under $20,000.00 that can support 20-25 pounds. Thats all. I appreciate the concern but this is more for my use than for just this one shoot. I want to avoid renting as I will be using this for future projects and feel it would be better to own and use everyday for practice as well as paid shoots or films. Thanks

May 18th, 2008, 09:00 PM	#21
John DeLuca Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 496	**I just want a list of everyones top 3 under $20,000.00 that can support 20-25 pounds** Matt- As people have pointed out, a quality rig at that price doesn’t exist. The closest is the Tiffen Archer (supports up to 23lbs) and is 23k for just the base model. Your best bet is to save up and look around for a used Clipper. Have you joined the steadicam forum yet? They have a good used gear section. CP can probably give you the best advice on this subject. -John

May 18th, 2008, 09:03 PM	#22
Matt Ryan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Hollywood, CA. Posts: 110	is anyone familiar with the v-25?

May 18th, 2008, 10:25 PM	#23
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	In case you haven't seen it, here is Charles King's review of the V25: http://homebuiltstabilizers.com/TheGlidecamV-25.pdf It's 20 pages long with lots of pictures and detailed descriptions. Since you are familiar with various rigs from your workshops, this review should be helpful in understanding the V25.

May 19th, 2008, 12:49 PM	#24
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	I'd just say that Jimmy Muro, who operated for James Cameron did Steadicam on his own feature film and said it wasn't a good idea to operate Steadicam and direct. I did Steadicam on a couple of my shorts (one Super 16 and the other 35mm ) and doing it for any length of time just drains energy that could be put to better use as a director and you're not concentrating on the actor's performances as much has you should. OK it's kinda fun, but for complex Steadicam shots the director should be working hard on the on screen action and tuning that rather than tuning his own complex dance with the Steadicam.

May 19th, 2008, 02:51 PM	#25
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	http://actionproducts.ch/en/actioncam/products.html fine swiss engineering and design...under $20K, hard to beat.

May 20th, 2008, 02:53 PM	#29
Matt Ryan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Hollywood, CA. Posts: 110	Thank you Meryem, That is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks again Jack and Afton. I appreciate everyones opinions and feedback. Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with the actionproducts the company or the rig? Thanks

May 21st, 2008, 08:53 AM	#30
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	Their customer service has been very good. They communicate well with their customers. The quality of the rig is excellent, and it is relatively easy to set up, balance, and get good footage in a very short span of time.