Stabilizer question

John DeLuca · June 4th, 2003, 10:18 PM

I want to order the mini, can you guys suggest some add ons that are a must? I could pay off the difference with the wedding coming up using a tripod and 501 head(if its good that is). The steadicam looks like a great way for a local business to seperate itself from the competition(with lots of practice of corse). My brother has a year of experence with the photography side of it, and I feel the video, and steadicam would be an excellent add on. If you could post some steadicam info videos, that would be great, I am curious to know everything I can about it. Thanks again, you all have gone out of your way to give the best advice. I feel much more confident hearing it from the best, than trying to wing it like I always do.

Its our first year so its not the best yet, but heres the photography side of it, this next wedding will be my first with video. "One must stand and walk before, one can learn to fly"

www.delucaphoto.com

John DeLuca

Charles Papert · June 4th, 2003, 11:09 PM

John Jay:

I'm a little fuzzy on what I heard, it's been a couple years, but I think a lot of them went back to the factory with problems, and the design in general, while good-looking, didn't fly as well as the JR.

John Jay · June 5th, 2003, 04:07 PM

Thx Charles

Maybe it was the manufacturing cost too high over functional requirement

Charles Papert · June 5th, 2003, 11:19 PM

Cinema Products (the original manufacturer of the Steadicam) had a fair amount of quality control and customer service, and went out of business not long ago. Tiffen bought the Steadicam license and continue to manufacture the various rigs, although they too have experienced financial issues.

The DV was an attempt to update and streamline the extremely successful Steadicam JR but even those within Cinema Products admitted it was a dud. This is probably why the unit was not carried over into the Tiffen product line.

Incidentally I took delivery of my DSD vest today as described a few posts back--it's a beaut. Got put right to the test shooting a barroom scene with Bernie Mac and Angela Lansbury. After hours of flying the rig (Panavision XL, around 70 lbs), I probably felt half the fatigue I'm accustomed to. Nice!

Cosmin Rotaru · June 6th, 2003, 02:10 AM

That's super, Charles! I gues I'm going with a back mounted, too. But I'll build it myself! :)

Cosmin Rotaru · June 6th, 2003, 08:36 AM

Charles P, can you comment on how do you feel the forcess to your body? Maybe compared to a front mounted vest. How much of the weight do you think is on the hips and how much on the shoulders (maybe 70%-30%?)
Thanks!

Charles Papert · June 6th, 2003, 09:25 AM

Cosmin:

It's a little early to tell, because I (thankfully) haven't yet done a marathon shot that will push me to the point of muscle failure, which is the best test of "where is the weight going". However, I can say at this point that it distributes most of the weight to the the lower torso and legs, and you feel it mostly in the hamstrings and glutes. This is VERY different than the standard front-mounted vest, which of course attacks the lower back and quads. Shoulders are perhaps 15%--the load there is more to keep the front of the harness from riding down too far.

The DSD achieves its results from years of intense engineering (I think the current model is at least the 5th version) and some intricate carbon fiber work. The support arm is extremely beefy, as it must be to handle the torque placed on it (think how far from its point of attachment it has to travel). The materials are milled out to make it as light as possible, but it is still noticeably heavier than a standard vest.

There is a backmounted vest made by ActionCam which uses more traditional materials and styling. An operator friend of mine had one but after a substantial period of use, he switched to the DSD. I have heard of another operator who had the support arm on his ActionCam vest snap right off under load.

Bottom line is: I think it would be a very difficult component to homebuild, unless the rig flown on it would be particularly lightweight (DV) which makes it more forgiving. It's just a much more complicated set of forces than the traditional vest.

But go for it! Prove me wrong, daddy-o!

Zac Stein · June 6th, 2003, 09:35 AM

Charles,

Better be careful, with all this less fatigue you may have to watch your diet more, less excersize could mean more weight to shift around :) heh

zac

Charles Papert · June 7th, 2003, 02:13 AM

Thankfully on this show I'm managing to stay off the craft service treats--so far!

Actually, the back mounted vest does put a certain pressure on the abdomen--not uncomfortable, but certainly a reminder of the ol' spare tire...

Cosmin Rotaru · June 9th, 2003, 02:27 AM

Thanks for the answer Charles. Yes I know the vest from ActionProducts back mounted vest and is the kind of vest I'm looking to build. The DSD and its custom carbon fibre shell is to much for me! I don't have the dools to make something like that! The ActionProducts one is easyer to make. I have more pics with it from different angles so I'll manage to "inverse engineer" it! :) I'm not surprised that the support arm snaped under a big load. You can see from pics that the support arm on the AP is more like a joke... It has to be very sturdy. Especialy that it goes a long way to the back. I can only imagine what kind of force is there!
I'm not into making a replica of the AP vest. But it would be something like that. And it would be adjustable. A good think if I'll decide to sell that rig, too!

I would apreciate some more pics (detailes) with the ActionProducts vest, if someone has them and could e-mail me some... (I'll send them back, I promise :-).

June 4th, 2003, 10:18 PM	#31
John DeLuca Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 496	Thanks I want to order the mini, can you guys suggest some add ons that are a must? I could pay off the difference with the wedding coming up using a tripod and 501 head(if its good that is). The steadicam looks like a great way for a local business to seperate itself from the competition(with lots of practice of corse). My brother has a year of experence with the photography side of it, and I feel the video, and steadicam would be an excellent add on. If you could post some steadicam info videos, that would be great, I am curious to know everything I can about it. Thanks again, you all have gone out of your way to give the best advice. I feel much more confident hearing it from the best, than trying to wing it like I always do. Its our first year so its not the best yet, but heres the photography side of it, this next wedding will be my first with video. "One must stand and walk before, one can learn to fly" www.delucaphoto.com John DeLuca

June 4th, 2003, 11:09 PM	#32
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	John Jay: I'm a little fuzzy on what I heard, it's been a couple years, but I think a lot of them went back to the factory with problems, and the design in general, while good-looking, didn't fly as well as the JR. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

June 5th, 2003, 04:07 PM	#33
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	Thx Charles Maybe it was the manufacturing cost too high over functional requirement __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

June 5th, 2003, 11:19 PM	#34
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Cinema Products (the original manufacturer of the Steadicam) had a fair amount of quality control and customer service, and went out of business not long ago. Tiffen bought the Steadicam license and continue to manufacture the various rigs, although they too have experienced financial issues. The DV was an attempt to update and streamline the extremely successful Steadicam JR but even those within Cinema Products admitted it was a dud. This is probably why the unit was not carried over into the Tiffen product line. Incidentally I took delivery of my DSD vest today as described a few posts back--it's a beaut. Got put right to the test shooting a barroom scene with Bernie Mac and Angela Lansbury. After hours of flying the rig (Panavision XL, around 70 lbs), I probably felt half the fatigue I'm accustomed to. Nice! __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

June 6th, 2003, 09:25 AM	#37
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Cosmin: It's a little early to tell, because I (thankfully) haven't yet done a marathon shot that will push me to the point of muscle failure, which is the best test of "where is the weight going". However, I can say at this point that it distributes most of the weight to the the lower torso and legs, and you feel it mostly in the hamstrings and glutes. This is VERY different than the standard front-mounted vest, which of course attacks the lower back and quads. Shoulders are perhaps 15%--the load there is more to keep the front of the harness from riding down too far. The DSD achieves its results from years of intense engineering (I think the current model is at least the 5th version) and some intricate carbon fiber work. The support arm is extremely beefy, as it must be to handle the torque placed on it (think how far from its point of attachment it has to travel). The materials are milled out to make it as light as possible, but it is still noticeably heavier than a standard vest. There is a backmounted vest made by ActionCam which uses more traditional materials and styling. An operator friend of mine had one but after a substantial period of use, he switched to the DSD. I have heard of another operator who had the support arm on his ActionCam vest snap right off under load. Bottom line is: I think it would be a very difficult component to homebuild, unless the rig flown on it would be particularly lightweight (DV) which makes it more forgiving. It's just a much more complicated set of forces than the traditional vest. But go for it! Prove me wrong, daddy-o! __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

June 6th, 2003, 02:10 AM	#35
Cosmin Rotaru Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Romania, Timisoara Posts: 453	That's super, Charles! I gues I'm going with a back mounted, too. But I'll build it myself! :)

June 6th, 2003, 08:36 AM	#36
Cosmin Rotaru Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Romania, Timisoara Posts: 453	Charles P, can you comment on how do you feel the forcess to your body? Maybe compared to a front mounted vest. How much of the weight do you think is on the hips and how much on the shoulders (maybe 70%-30%?) Thanks!

June 6th, 2003, 09:35 AM	#38
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	Charles, Better be careful, with all this less fatigue you may have to watch your diet more, less excersize could mean more weight to shift around :) heh zac

June 7th, 2003, 02:13 AM	#39
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Thankfully on this show I'm managing to stay off the craft service treats--so far! Actually, the back mounted vest does put a certain pressure on the abdomen--not uncomfortable, but certainly a reminder of the ol' spare tire... __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

June 9th, 2003, 02:27 AM	#40
Cosmin Rotaru Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Romania, Timisoara Posts: 453	Thanks for the answer Charles. Yes I know the vest from ActionProducts back mounted vest and is the kind of vest I'm looking to build. The DSD and its custom carbon fibre shell is to much for me! I don't have the dools to make something like that! The ActionProducts one is easyer to make. I have more pics with it from different angles so I'll manage to "inverse engineer" it! :) I'm not surprised that the support arm snaped under a big load. You can see from pics that the support arm on the AP is more like a joke... It has to be very sturdy. Especialy that it goes a long way to the back. I can only imagine what kind of force is there! I'm not into making a replica of the AP vest. But it would be something like that. And it would be adjustable. A good think if I'll decide to sell that rig, too! I would apreciate some more pics (detailes) with the ActionProducts vest, if someone has them and could e-mail me some... (I'll send them back, I promise :-).