Got $500 to spend....

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by John Nantz

For me, due to my, ...what, mental attitude?, ... given the two camera form factors I would reverse them and put the DSLR on the tripod as the main camera (lock the red button on, assuming it stays fixed in focus and position) because I would want the camcorder form factor to run around with as the B-cam.

That would make sense - if the DSLR recorded for more that 12 minutes at a time.

Here's our setup:
* The camcorder is on a photo tripod, locked down. It sees the speaker at a lectern, part of the audience, and the PowerPoint slides on the projector screen. It records the audio from the lectern mic.
* The DSLR is tight on the speaker on a Vinten tripod. It pans to follow the speaker. When the PowerPoint slide becomes important, I pan the speaker to one side and the slide is keyed into the other side of the frame in post. I stop and start the recording within every 12 minutes when appropriate.
* The PowerPoint slides can also be inserted full frame when there are many details.

This edits together nicely. I use the wide with deep focus as an establishing and master shot. I use the slides full frame when they provide detail and as start and end title slides. I use the tight shot when the speaker is "performing". I use the tight + over the shoulder shot for the majority of the presentation. The shallow DOF works great to isolate the speaker from the background.

Given that we don't use shoulder/handheld shots, having the camcorder as the master makes a lot of sense.

So, how does it feel to use a DSLR in this application? Well, I wish it didn't stop every 12-14 minutes (4GB limit.) Aside from that, I set and forget the focus and the main job is to frame with the tripod, including strategic moves for fading in/out the over-the-shoulder slides.

If I were doing a live production (as you see at large events), I'd want a camera with genlock and HD-SDI out - and that's not a DSLR. For our offline production, the DLSR is just an image capture device, so it does the job well.

[John Nantz]

12 minutes .... that would really make a difference so I can see where you're coming from.

Last December I had a Christmas program shoot that lasted an hour and I also had to stop and start the main camera every so often but I had my wife helping to keep track of time so it didn't run past. Just had to pick a spot where that could be done. Also, had to run a B-cam at the same time. A wife can be a handy assistant.

From reading the shooting workflow it's apparent you have this down to a science!

There are things to be learned here (on this web site). After reading a post Taky Cheung just made about how to use the Comer light to increase it's spot capability I think I may have just adjusted my To-Buy list priorities. A Light Panels fresnel light was just added to the list ($1,500) and my thought was it would be fairly high up but thanks to Taky's idea I'm afraid it just dropped to a lower level.

Also, after reading how some are using creative ideas to use and place a small recorder, the wireless lavaliere on The List also took a beating in the priority department. All this will help to elevate the camcorder replacement item.

[Mark Koha]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

That would make sense - if the DSLR recorded for more that 12 minutes at a time.

Here's our setup:
* The camcorder is on a photo tripod, locked down. It sees the speaker at a lectern, part of the audience, and the PowerPoint slides on the projector screen. It records the audio from the lectern mic.
* The DSLR is tight on the speaker on a Vinten tripod. It pans to follow the speaker. When the PowerPoint slide becomes important, I pan the speaker to one side and the slide is keyed into the other side of the frame in post. I stop and start the recording within every 12 minutes when appropriate.
* The PowerPoint slides can also be inserted full frame when there are many details.

This edits together nicely. I use the wide with deep focus as an establishing and master shot. I use the slides full frame when they provide detail and as start and end title slides. I use the tight shot when the speaker is "performing". I use the tight + over the shoulder shot for the majority of the presentation. The shallow DOF works great to isolate the speaker from the background.

Given that we don't use shoulder/handheld shots, having the camcorder as the master makes a lot of sense.

So, how does it feel to use a DSLR in this application? Well, I wish it didn't stop every 12-14 minutes (4GB limit.) Aside from that, I set and forget the focus and the main job is to frame with the tripod, including strategic moves for fading in/out the over-the-shoulder slides.

If I were doing a live production (as you see at large events), I'd want a camera with genlock and HD-SDI out - and that's not a DSLR. For our offline production, the DLSR is just an image capture device, so it does the job well.

I haven't done a ton of corporate work but I'm glad to see you take the same approach as I do. I do 98% sports production and I just carry that over to other things. I use a "game" camera that captures the whole "play" of what is going on and is wider so you don't miss anything (hopefully) and then there is the "tight follow" for when you need to cut away and get in the action.

[Patrick Janka]

Steven, I did not find your post condescending. I was actually about to chime in with the same thing. I shoot both on DSLR's (Panasonic GH3/2), as well as a standard video camera (Sony NX5U). Different tools for different jobs. By and large, the Sony is my go-to corporate camera. It really depends on the gig, but if I need a safe camera with proper audio, ND filters, big zoom range with servo, long battery/dual card slots, etc. it's a no-brainer. Trying to juggle a DSLR with multiple accessories is a non starter. Also, a lot of time I'm shooting and sending the footage to the production company for editing. They don't want to have to sync audio, they want everything in one easy and quick file. Also, isn't there a time recording limit on the T3i? Even if there isn't, surely the battery won't go for very long. What if you're shooting a continuous 2 hour lecture? Stopping the camera to change cards and battery is unacceptable.

[Brock Burwell]

Thanks for your responses guys...

Steven, I appreciate your honesty. To be honest, agree with you. That said, you are most likely on a completely different level than me. As you know I'm just starting out (hence why you said for me not to go down the wrong road) but I think DSLR may be the way for me currently. I started using a DSLR to get photos of my church's events and it kinda just evolved into video. I still plan on doing photography but figured if I upgraded lenses for video, it would translate to the photography side as well. So being able to do photography and video from the same device will be nice

I don't plan on shooting live corporate events or anything like that. My current goal (1-2 years) is to get good enough and comfortable enough with my equipment to shoot short promos for small businesses in my area. Mostly would consist of interviews and b-roll. Nothing too crazy. Once I get good at that, maybe I can look into getting into some other things.

Per everyone's advice, I ended up getting the AT899 lav mic and the Tascam DR100MXii for my recorder

I ended up also getting the Konova K3 80cm slider. I have a shoot coming up that a slider could really be nice on and I think that one was the best for the money. Many of you may say I should have just gotten a better mic and recorder for the money I spent on it, but I couldn't help it. lol

I also got an 18% gray card and new 32 GB SD card for a very good price.

So for now awhile, my purchases are finished. I want to get good with this equipment and then maybe make my money back on a video or two. Hopefully then the wife will see the benefit and let me buy more! ha

Next to buy....a new wide angle lens

[Steven Digges]

Thanks Patrick. You did not find it condesending because that was not my intent. I am pretty active on this board and guys that have read my posts figure out I am blunt and have a sense of humor. When I reread that post I thought, who am I to tell some guy he needs to learn to walk before he can run. It wasn't a bad post, but it could have been read wrong. I read a lot into what I see here myself. I did not revise my post about DSLRs, I revised the second post I made on page 3.

Jon F,

Thanks for the counter point. You are correct, just as I am too. I don't know how many models of video cameras are on the market but it is in the hundreds maybe a thousand, I don't know. They all have two things in common. The will record a video image and an audio sound track. After that it is all about your budget and what tool you need to do the work at hand. In Brock's case, It sounded to me like he was making a rookie mistake. That old misconception about you build a kit, learn a few shots, and now your a pro ready for any thing. That is not how this industry works. The kit you guys are helping him build has nothing to do with "corporate work", even in the broad sense of the term. I wanted to be sure he knew that before he continued to invest in the wrong gear if he really wants to eventually do so called corporate work.

Steve

Edit: Brock, your post above this one and this one crossed in the stratosphere at the same time. I will respond more later.

[John DuMontelle]

Originally Posted by Brock Burwell

I also got an 18% gray card and new 32 GB SD card for a very good price.

As to the "good price" for the 32 gig card...what class of card did you get?

I hope it was at least a class 10.

You can find "lesser" cards which hold that same amount of gigs...but they don't have a fast enough read/write speed to record video over a long period of time...or even a short period of time.

I may be wasting this post and not giving you enough credit for knowing this.

However I've seen too many make the mistake of just looking at the gig number and a low price thinking they've saved some money...while not paying attention to the more important numbers.

[John DuMontelle]

Originally Posted by Patrick Janka

Also, isn't there a time recording limit on the T3i? Even if there isn't, surely the battery won't go for very long. What if you're shooting a continuous 2 hour lecture? Stopping the camera to change cards and battery is unacceptable.

I often use a t3i as a second locked-down camera on 2-camera interviews.

For what it's worth...primary camera is a Sony PMW EX3 and that's where all audio goes.

Both cameras shooting 30p HD/HQ.

With two 32gig cards in the EX3...I can roll for hours without worrying about any "break".

T3i has ML in it...but still has the breaks every time it reaches the 4 gig limit.

I don't worry about timing that camera. It runs continuously...even beyond the 29 minutes without a hitch.

I did a half dozen sit-down interviews just last week with a correspondent who did nothing less than one hour and a half long interviews.

The battery lasted just under one hour and twenty five minutes each time with continuous recording.

I have yet to run into an overheating issue. (knock on wood)

I did a very quiet battery change during the interview since I had the producer watching the DSLR to let me know when it stopped recording if/when the battery died.

Here's a link to a photo from one of those LOOOONNNNG interviews.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=1&theater

Clients knew of the DSLR limitations...and still wanted the interviews shot with it. All to save a buck but they felt the balance between money saved and still getting a "high enough" quality HD image from the second camera made it worth while. The client in this case was Caracol, a National Colombian television network, but I've also used the t3i DSLR as a second camera on CBS Network News interviews because they too asked for it...even though the DSLR does lose a second or two when it goes from one 4 gig file to the next.

[Brock Burwell]

Yea John it was a class 10...

It was best buys "deal of the day." It was a San Disk 32gb for 20.99. Pretty good deal so I jumped on it.

In regards to not giving me enough credit, you were right to ask me about it as I really only learned about different speeds of cards a couple weeks ago. I appreciate you looking out for me. Much appreciated

[John Nantz]

Professional videography BUSINESS or HOBBY?

Okay, now for an editorial comment on a couple threads here where professional videographers want suggestions on what to buy within a specified budget.

In the first example the poster was looking "for an affordable LED Spot" and had a target price in "the $300 range", wound up really liking the Light Panels SOLA 4 light with a retail of $1,500 and a street price of $1,300. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-m...estions-2.html To Danny's credit, providing a highlight on the talent will add to the video presentation and the one source for the light was about $300 under retail.

In the second example (here), Brock was looking for suggestions on what to spend a $500 tax refund on (he did say this was for his "hobby" -quotes were his - but he's definitely a pro wannabe) and wound up actually spending probably over $700 - as best I can guess.

This is about budgeting. Without good budgeting one could actually go bankrupt, or worse, even get divorced (that scenario would be "below" being bankrupt). In one of my former jobs, my annual review was based in part on how well I performed in budgeting and being over budget or more than 3% under constituted poor performance.

Question(s):
What's going on here? Do videographers have a soft spot when it comes to buying equipment?

Are videographers poor money managers? (this is only a sampling of 2 so not totally scientific)

Did Brock get a free pass from his wife for some more money? (If he proposed a good argument for additional funds I'd like to know what it was)

Did Danny mis-write his original post and really intended to say he wanted to SAVE ~ $300?

Did they all rationalize, thinking that their new purchase would be more than made up with income from greatly improved videos?

Did Brock feel that what he is doing is really for a "hobby" and therefore budget be dammed? I can see it now, "But Honey, I can probably earn it back on my first gig", "It'll pay for itself", ...

Well, at least some of us tried to help them stay within budget. In Danny's case maybe it was Doug Jensen who did him under with the comment about "dragging around that 20 pounds"... and Danny fell for it. 20 pounds, Yikes! I guess his kit is already too heavy. It did seem like a really good light (so good, in fact that I even added it to my To-Buy List), but later I read Taky Cheung's "fix" using a Comer 1800 so the Spot took a real ratings hit on my List.

Guess I'm as guilty as the next guy in acquiring kit items.

Maybe it's "our creative thinking" - rationalizing how much better our work will look, how much easier it will be, or maybe how much more we can make. Maybe there's both an upside and a downside to being creative?

[Brock Burwell]

Well...to be honest, my wife was planning on spending $500 of the tax refund and I was going to spend $500 as well. Turns out she spent $600 so she was a little more lenient on my purchases. lol. I spent less than $700 so I at least stayed close to her.

My thought process, like you stated, was that by shooting with the better equipment, I can make better videos and potentially attract clients once I get good with it all.

Now that said, I tried to limit myself. I didn't go too far over budget. I guess I could use that line of reasoning and go out and purchase all the equipment I want and call it an investment, but I'm happy now. No more purchases until I am making money off of what I'm doing with my current gear

[Steven Digges]

John,

Didn't I read that your considering upgrading an old camcorder (not sure if it was you)? When I get time later I am going to make a post that just might make you rearrange that "to buy" list again.

Brock says " No more purchases until I am making money off of what I'm doing with my current gear". Ha, that is one of the three big lies! ;) :) :)

Pro or amateur? For what it is worth. Way way back in the eighties when I started out as a still guy a professional photographers trade organization defined that question. Their standard was: The photographer must earn 50% or more of his NET income to be considered a professional photographer.

Last month Chris Hurd published a feature article I wrote on the content side of this web site. It is a satirical look at me, video guys, and our industry. It is here: The Evolution of My Industry at DV Info Net

If you are bored enough to read it and want to comment on it, please do that on the thread all ready in progress for comments here: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/dv-info-...nail-head.html

I am not trying to blow my own horn, some of the jabs I take are pertenint to this thread :)

Steve

[John Nantz]

Time is money, but I can't let these posts go unanswered!

To Brock:

Originally Posted by Brock Burwell

Well...to be honest, my wife was planning on spending $500 .... Turns out she spent $600 so she was a little more lenient on my purchases. lol. I spent less than $700 so I at least stayed close to her.

You did really good. In a brief look at street prices I was getting over $750 so that was excellent. And the Tascam DR100 looked like a deal. Hopefully she doesn't make too big of a deal about the little bit you went over.

Originally Posted by Brock Burwell

My thought process, like you stated, was that by shooting with the better equipment, I can make better videos and potentially attract clients once I get good with it all.

I can see we think along similar lies, er... I mean, lines.

Originally Posted by Brock Burwell

Now that said, I tried to limit myself. I didn't go too far over budget. I guess I could use that line of reasoning and go out and purchase all the equipment I want and call it an investment, but I'm happy now. No more purchases until I am making money off of what I'm doing with my current gear

Investment? Great idea. Two thumbs up! After all, it isn't like it doesn't have some resale value.
Don't forget how much you saved over 'retail'.
As for being "happy now" .... we'll be watching.

And, as for Steven:

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

John,

Didn't I read that your considering upgrading an old camcorder (not sure if it was you)? When I get time later I am going to make a post that just might make you rearrange that "to buy" list again.

Ummm... moi?
Did you get that in writing?

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

Brock says " No more purchases until I am making money off of what I'm doing with my current gear". Ha, that is one of the three big lies! ;) :) :)

I think we both got him covered on that one. Surely a statement that will go down in infamy. Hopefully (for his sake) his wife isn't reading his posts! And there are archives .... he may wind up wishing he never wrote that one. My grandmother said "Never put in writing what you don't want someone else [or a wife] to read."

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

Last month Chris Hurd published a feature article I wrote on the content side of this web site. It is a satirical look at me, video guys, and our industry. It is here: The Evolution of My Industry at DV Info Net

And I did read it, it was really good. I was going to comment but so many others said a lot of what I thought about saying, and did it better. That was a really good read.

As for "jabs" ... hey, this is serious stuff. Isn't it?

[Patrick Janka]

John, what I love about the Panny GH3/2 is there is no recording time limit =)

[Brock Burwell]

Haha! I already went through B&H and put some items into my wish list. I really do need a wide angle lens though! LOL