PXW- FS5 - A very "soft" 4k image?

[Noa Put]

You are shooting to deliver the raw files to a friend or a client and they say"Hey, why are your FS5 files softer that my A7S-R/S files?"

That means that whoever is responsible for the shoot did it wrong as they had to lower the detail settings in A7S-R/S files so it matched the fs5.

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

Another thing is that sharpening plugins slow down renders.

That might depend on the NLE used, in Edius adding sharpening to a 100mbs 4K file takes max 1 second longer to render per minute footage with sharpening vs without sharpening, that's hardly a problem.

[Cliff Totten]

Right, very true.

After reading all this, I'm starting to believe now that a softer image is a more "pro" image after all. It's also very intelligent and very well calculated for Sony to heavily cripple it's DETAIL adjustment control. And, completely disabling the entire MANUAL SET parameters list was a sheer stroke of genius on Sony's part.

Sorry folks, I was kind off my rocker there for a while by expecting camera sliders and values to actually "work".

I love the logic:

"Hey, my knee and slope controls do nothing in my camera"....

"So what, dont worry about it, throw a gamma curve in post and make your own knee there."

"Hey, my in camera saturation doesn't work"

"So what if it doesn't work, just adjust your saturation in post"

Sorry for living on planet Mars there for a short while. On Mars, if those people see a product feature, they get shocked if they see it does nothing.

I'm better now.

CT ;-)

[Cliff Totten]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

That means that whoever is responsible for the shoot did it wrong as they had to lower the detail settings in A7S-R/S files so it matched the fs5.

Seriously Noa?

Five camera guys: "Hey guys!,...which one of you has the softest, dullest, haziest image?....camera three, the FS5 guy? Ok guys, muddy down all your profiles to match the camera three guy"

C'mon man....LOL

CT

[Noa Put]

Yes, that's how it works if you mix different type of camera's, you first test if the camera's match and do what is needed in camera to minimize post work. You don't mix black magic camera raw with a panasonic gh4, a Sony A7s and a canon 5D all with standard settings in one shoot and then hand it over to a editor and say, have fun...

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

which one of you has the softest, dullest, haziest image?....camera three, the FS5 guy?

It looks like you are the only fs5 owner here who thinks the fs5 produces a crap image, I think you are better off selling it and get a, what you would consider, better camera, but you better do the math before you buy it ;)

[Cliff Totten]

I never said the FS5 produces a "crap" image. My post about making every camera operator turn down their image sharpness to match the dullest camera is just irreverent humor. (my attempt at it anyway) ;-)

The FS5 image is NOT "crap". I like the FS5 and I'm keeping it. I'm merely asking for a simple and fundamental consumer request. The FS5 has a "DETAIL" and a "MANUAL SET" function option. Today, the DETAIL adjustment is so weak that it's virtually unnoticeable. And, the "MANUAL SET" options,...all 5 of them...are completely dysfunctional in the cameras firmware. (v/h balance, b/w balance, limit, crispening and hi-light detail). This is not like any other Sony camera I know.

If you bought a brand new car and the radio didn't work, wouldn't you want the radio to work?....or would you say, "ehh...that's OK, at least the .mp3 player works".

By me stating this, does that mean I must not like my camera?

People, am I asking for way too much here? To me it's something simple and fundamental. I like my FS5, it just needs to have functioning DETAIL and MANUAL SET options like any other Sony camera.

CT

[Doug Jensen]

Cliff, I totally agree with you that if a product has adjustable settings -- those settings ought to make a tangible difference or else they shouldn't even be included on the product. And the Detail settings of the FS5 certainly fall into that category. I agree,

However, on the other hand, I will also say that I find the Detail/Sharpness of the FS5 to be sufficient and I wouldn't recommend anyone go stronger than that even if they could. Cranking up the detail to match lower-end cameras is a mistake. But if Sony is going to give someone a gun, they should at least put bullets in the gun so someone can shoot themselves in the foot if they want to. :-)

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

The FS5 has a "DETAIL" and a "MANUAL SET" function option. Today, the DETAIL adjustment is so weak that it's virtually unnoticeable. And, the "MANUAL SET" options,...all 5 of them...are completely dysfunctional in the cameras firmware. (v/h balance, b/w balance, limit, crispening and hi-light detail). This is not like any other Sony camera I know.

I don't have the FS5 so forgive me if I'm wrong, but I respectfully disagree with the last sentence of the above Cliff's statement. In all Sony camera's I've ever owned (including my EX1 workhorse and my new FS7 which I'm still only learning), all those controls are very, very subtle - in fact, you hardly see their effect using the smallish camera's monitor. But they do work - just connect the camera to some good scopes, or simply to a larger monitor (like my 50" flat screen) - and you will see those subtle changes to your picture. Perhaps for some reason the changes are even less pronounced on the FS5 - that I couldn't know - but that's the way it is with "any other Sony camera I know...

Piotr

PS. Oh, and the FS7 4K/UHD picture is not very sharp, either - but being a "digital cine camera", that is good and expectable. After all, on a cinema screen - have you ever seen a picture as sharp as those little prosumer camcorders are set for? Film is not like that...Neither is it supposed to look too contrasty - perhaps your impression of detail lacking is augmented by applying too much contrast in post, Cliff? High contrast and artificially added detail edges look so video-ish to me... Try using less contrast, avoid crushing black too much - and you will see details are there, after all!

[Cliff Totten]

Doug - Agreed! Sony should give us the gun AND the bullets to shoot ourselves in the foot if we want to with the FS5. They already do this with most of their other cameras. If Sony is determined to not allow these 5 MANUAL SET controls to work, they should remove them from the camera. If they still want them displayed in the menu system, they should at least have a clause in the user manual that states:

*"The above 5 MANUAL SET options have been disabled as it is determined that sharpening is unwarranted and not necessary for this particular Sony camera model. This is not a malfunction."

This would give the instruction manual reader peace of mind that everything is working fine. :-)

Piotr - On my EX1r, "crispening" can be messed with so much that it can permanently destroy an image. I have found the EX1r''s profiles settings in regards to sharpness to be very powerfull. Actually, all my Sony cameras have decent flexibility. The FS700 too. I have honestly never needed to in-camera sharpen any Sony camera until now.

I have zero experience with an FS7. However, it has beautiful tone, like the FS700 and FS5 but the few bare files I have seen are slightly soft to my eyes like the FS5 too. This is NOT a Knock on that camera. I just gravitate to high detail sometimes.

I like "soft" for interviews, or lectures, and for people's skin tones in general. I like sharp detail for animals, forest trees and rocks at the grand canyon. I'm taking my FS5 to Yellowstone and I want to capture as much fine texture as I can for this project. I'm thinking of bringing my A7s-Ii rig too now.

Anyhoo....I don't this FS5 menu problem is intentional. I think it's a bug?

CT

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Cliff,

It's true that Crispening can be extremely effective on the EX1, but some other controls - like e.g. horizontal/vertical frequency or coring - are very difficult to see effect of unless one knows well what to look for. I really am not implying anything about FS5 as I don't know the camera at all, but since you agree the FS7 picture is also on the soft side for you I guess it might be matter of taste (again - notwithstanding controls that apparently do not have any effect at all on the FS5, as you and Doug imply).

Cheers

Piotr