Why does 25p look so different between my FS5 and DSLR? at DVinfo.net

Nigel Davey · February 27th, 2016, 04:13 AM

I've noticed this several times over the years on different cameras. On some cameras, my Nikon D5300 DSLR's for example, monitoring 25p (with 1/50 shutter speed) via the camera's LCD looks nice and smooth whilst panning/moving the camera around (bar the slight jello effect). If I do the same on my FS5 it looks jerky/juddery/jittery as heck.

Now I get all the science behind Progressive and Interlaced so I am not asking why Progressive looks juddery. I'm asking why the degree of jitteriness appears so different on different cameras? Is it only at the monitoring stage and not what actually gets recorded?... which might be the same across all cameras (with the same settings).

As an addemdum to the above if I were to do a three camera shoot with my 2 D5300 DSLR's and my FS5 all set to 25p with a 1/50 shutter speed, would they all appear the same (for movement) both on my timeline and then when exported to viewed on Net? services lke Youtube?

Noa Put · February 27th, 2016, 05:21 AM

Is the juddery effect visible in both the lcd screen and what is actually recorded on your fs5? Maybe if you show a sample of how it looks that makes it better to understand what you are seeing.

Nigel Davey · February 27th, 2016, 06:10 AM

I can try to do that Noa but I suspect as we introduce more layers of potential change (eg putting it through Post, exporting it, letting Vimeo/Youtube convert it and your PC monitors refresh rate) you might see something quite different to what I see on the camera's monitor when recording.

In one respect it's probably worth doing to answer my own question, ie will it look different at the end of the process when uploaded to the Net? But I was kind of hoping somene would know right off the bat why 25p looks so different/smoother or jerky on the monitors of some cameras.

Noa Put · February 27th, 2016, 06:47 AM

You could place a short test file right of the card on your google drive and just place a download link here.

Christopher Young · February 27th, 2016, 08:27 PM

I'm pretty sure it's to do with the screen refresh rate only. 25p is 25p and shouldn't look much different from camera to camera barring issues such as rolling shutter artifacts.

On an FS700 I can see both smoother and jerkier motion displayed at the same time. With an Alphatron viewfinder attached the 25p looks image smoother on it than the the image on the camera's own LCD screen. The camera screen giving the more realistic view of just how jerky your panning speed is. The speed of frame rate refresh being slower on the Alphatron with its iPhone LCD based screen.

I remember when training in film, as it was in those days at the BBC, we were always told that at 24fps on a medium to wide shot if you had a tree on one side of the frame and were panning to get it to the opposite side to get it there smoothly your pan should take about 7 seconds. This seems like an eternity but it's true you will end up with a pretty smooth pan as it's speed of movement is not clashing with the refresh rate of the screen. I find that to be the same in 25p. Minimize pans let the movement happen in frame and 25p can look very good. I guess that's why many of us want 50/60p to get the same type of smoother temporal and spatial movement we have been used to for years growing up with with interlaced TV.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Nigel Davey · February 28th, 2016, 09:14 AM

Thanks Chris. I also wondered if it is the screen. When I get a moment I'll do what Noa suggested. I also suspect the moment I get the 25p rushes from my DSLR and FS5 on a timeline, they'll both look the same, jerkiness wise, on my programme monitor.

IRO 50p, going forwards I was thinking of shooting pretty much all of my footage in 1080 XAVC HD 50p. As far as I can see there aren't too many downsides. Obviously the file sizes will be a bit bigger and the CPU will be handling more. But losing the jerkiness (re movement/action) and having the option of decent 50% slo-mo seems very appealing.

John Mitchell · February 28th, 2016, 08:24 PM

Actually I think the amount of judder on pans is directly related to sensor size and the lens being used. That's because sensor size determines field of view as does the lens being used. I think there's a Wiki table somewhere but in the meantime a quick Google search found this:

Panning Best Practices

Gary Huff · February 28th, 2016, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

Actually I think the amount of judder on pans is directly related to sensor size and the lens being used.

It's not related to that at all. It's frame rate and shutter speed.

February 27th, 2016, 04:13 AM	#1
Nigel Davey Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: London Posts: 241	Why does 25p look so different between my FS5 and DSLR? I've noticed this several times over the years on different cameras. On some cameras, my Nikon D5300 DSLR's for example, monitoring 25p (with 1/50 shutter speed) via the camera's LCD looks nice and smooth whilst panning/moving the camera around (bar the slight jello effect). If I do the same on my FS5 it looks jerky/juddery/jittery as heck. Now I get all the science behind Progressive and Interlaced so I am not asking why Progressive looks juddery. I'm asking why the degree of jitteriness appears so different on different cameras? Is it only at the monitoring stage and not what actually gets recorded?... which might be the same across all cameras (with the same settings). As an addemdum to the above if I were to do a three camera shoot with my 2 D5300 DSLR's and my FS5 all set to 25p with a 1/50 shutter speed, would they all appear the same (for movement) both on my timeline and then when exported to viewed on Net? services lke Youtube?

February 27th, 2016, 05:21 AM	#2
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Why does 25p look so different between my FS5 and DSLR? Is the juddery effect visible in both the lcd screen and what is actually recorded on your fs5? Maybe if you show a sample of how it looks that makes it better to understand what you are seeing.

February 27th, 2016, 06:10 AM	#3
Nigel Davey Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: London Posts: 241	Re: Why does 25p look so different between my FS5 and DSLR? I can try to do that Noa but I suspect as we introduce more layers of potential change (eg putting it through Post, exporting it, letting Vimeo/Youtube convert it and your PC monitors refresh rate) you might see something quite different to what I see on the camera's monitor when recording. In one respect it's probably worth doing to answer my own question, ie will it look different at the end of the process when uploaded to the Net? But I was kind of hoping somene would know right off the bat why 25p looks so different/smoother or jerky on the monitors of some cameras.

February 27th, 2016, 06:47 AM	#4
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Why does 25p look so different between my FS5 and DSLR? You could place a short test file right of the card on your google drive and just place a download link here.

February 27th, 2016, 08:27 PM	#5
Christopher Young Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	Re: Why does 25p look so different between my FS5 and DSLR? I'm pretty sure it's to do with the screen refresh rate only. 25p is 25p and shouldn't look much different from camera to camera barring issues such as rolling shutter artifacts. On an FS700 I can see both smoother and jerkier motion displayed at the same time. With an Alphatron viewfinder attached the 25p looks image smoother on it than the the image on the camera's own LCD screen. The camera screen giving the more realistic view of just how jerky your panning speed is. The speed of frame rate refresh being slower on the Alphatron with its iPhone LCD based screen. I remember when training in film, as it was in those days at the BBC, we were always told that at 24fps on a medium to wide shot if you had a tree on one side of the frame and were panning to get it to the opposite side to get it there smoothly your pan should take about 7 seconds. This seems like an eternity but it's true you will end up with a pretty smooth pan as it's speed of movement is not clashing with the refresh rate of the screen. I find that to be the same in 25p. Minimize pans let the movement happen in frame and 25p can look very good. I guess that's why many of us want 50/60p to get the same type of smoother temporal and spatial movement we have been used to for years growing up with with interlaced TV. Chris Young CYV Productions Sydney

February 28th, 2016, 09:14 AM	#6
Nigel Davey Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: London Posts: 241	Re: Why does 25p look so different between my FS5 and DSLR? Thanks Chris. I also wondered if it is the screen. When I get a moment I'll do what Noa suggested. I also suspect the moment I get the 25p rushes from my DSLR and FS5 on a timeline, they'll both look the same, jerkiness wise, on my programme monitor. IRO 50p, going forwards I was thinking of shooting pretty much all of my footage in 1080 XAVC HD 50p. As far as I can see there aren't too many downsides. Obviously the file sizes will be a bit bigger and the CPU will be handling more. But losing the jerkiness (re movement/action) and having the option of decent 50% slo-mo seems very appealing.

February 28th, 2016, 08:24 PM	#7
John Mitchell Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 873	Re: Why does 25p look so different between my FS5 and DSLR? Actually I think the amount of judder on pans is directly related to sensor size and the lens being used. That's because sensor size determines field of view as does the lens being used. I think there's a Wiki table somewhere but in the meantime a quick Google search found this: Panning Best Practices Last edited by John Mitchell; February 28th, 2016 at 08:24 PM. Reason: typ