FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another

[Jack Zhang]

Originally Posted by Mike Watson

What I'm trying to get to here is that this forum is filled with people who 1) own the camera 2) are contemplating buying the camera. You are neither. You're an activist with a bone to pick. What gives? I just don't have that kind of energy, and I don't understand those that do. I'd rather spend my time on something that gives back.

The Sony decision to remove the copy feature pisses me off more than just the poor rushed engineering choices for processors in the FS5. Profits from removal of features and paywalling of existing features is just not worth the degradation of UX. Sony's been notorious for this on the PlayStation brand. I didn't want to see this behavior spread to the professional market, where business is based on trust and flexibility.

There are other ways to ensure you can still get revenue and install base from using your file system and the code to manage it. License it to people like Convergent Design or Nexto DI so that they can still do the same work, but you still get a cut of the use as profit cause it has to still be a purchased option. (and I will point out, it's not a paywall to an existing feature, it's an optional new feature.)

Heck, if they combined the Nexto DI NSB-25 and the Odyssey 7Q+ in one device, then add licenses for managing Canon, Panasonic and Sony file structures and previewing formats, that thing would sell like hotcakes. You'd have a RAW recorder, Monitor, 6G-SDI, 4x 3G-SDI, and HDMI 1.4 recorder, Backup device, File Manager, Optional 4 camera switcher & recorder, Preview device for camera clips, Multi-card reader, and then if you include a USB port that supports Wi-Fi and/or Ethernet adapters, you can receive IP streams or setup a portable FTP server.

And BTW, the only thing I'm holding off on the Odyssey is DNxHD and DNxHR support.

[Christopher Young]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

If you would run into a situation like that and not being able to give the client what he wants means you got there totally unprepared.

+1. Totally agree.
I've only used the FS700's "copy" function once to and from the 128GB Flash Memory, and that was to see if it worked. It did but it was as slow as a wet week and while copying is happening you can't use the camera. Not surprised Sony has dropped the function. Just having more sets of cards works for me.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

[Jack Zhang]

Oh so the inability to use the camera is what feedback they took from this, huh? I guess this is a clear difference between freelance and episodic. Freelancers have the time for a copy while episodic need to go back out to shoot immediately.

Still, Catalyst should NOT be the only piece of software able to manage Sony's camera original file structures. Nexto devices should be able to as well, on individual clips with full metadata copying as well with camera file structure. This point I will say is very feasible if you licensed a option for the device that is available for optional purchase to manage in native camera file structure. They already have a purchasable 4K transcode option on the NSB-25, so there is a framework for this in the device itself.

[Noa Put]

I guess this is a clear difference between freelance and episodic. Freelancers have the time for a copy while episodic need to go back out to shoot immediately.

It's about being a professional, a professional uses a camera that supports his workflow, if copying clips in-camera is crucial to your client, then buy or rent a camera that supports this, period.

Also, if copying in-camera is as slow as Christopher said and if you can't use the camera during this process, who do you think is first to go out and shoot immediately again, the one that just replaces his cards with new ones and leaves the old card with the client or the one that is waiting with the client while his camera is copying data? :D

[Jack Zhang]

Fair enough, but modern PCI-E and SATA interfaces are faster than what Chris experienced with the FMU128, which is USB 2.0 based.

In any case, I'll make sure to invest in a Nexto device if I make a new Sony camera purchase, cause both Macs and PCs are getting ridiculous for their own reasons, and Vanilla Linux installs still have crude support for exFAT.

[Noa Put]

Even if the copy process is fast, taking a sd card out, hand it over and stick a new card in is still way faster, you can be out shooting again in a matter of seconds while they can use the card to start editing right away. Just calculate the cheap price of the sd cards the fs5 uses in your invoice and you might question why you would ever use a incamera copy function if time is critical.

[Christopher Young]

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

Fair enough, but modern PCI-E and SATA interfaces are faster than what Chris experienced with the FMU128, which is USB 2.0 based.

The FMU is USB 2.0 when used externally to a computer but when it's in the camera it uses its own multi-pin interface which is way faster to move clips with than using the USB when connected to a PC.

In spite of it being much faster internally, being flash memory, than its USB port it is painfully slow when you try to transfer a 90 min shoot in camera. It at least does see the 90 mins as one event but it is still 2GB files transferred one by painful one.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

[Jack Zhang]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

Even if the copy process is fast, taking a sd card out, hand it over and stick a new card in is still way faster, you can be out shooting again in a matter of seconds while they can use the card to start editing right away. Just calculate the cheap price of the sd cards the fs5 uses in your invoice and you might question why you would ever use a incamera copy function if time is critical.

I guess this is yet another generational gap where we're now facing the prospect of media prices finally being cheap enough to store on a shelf rather than you have to re-use it each time. (At least for SD cards)

I came from the days when P2 and SxS was ridiculously expensive, and you didn't have many P2 or SxS cards because they were ridiculously expensive. XQD and SxS still is too expensive to archive for a single use, they are to this day media that has to be re-used a lot. My memory card purchasing strategy has reflected this. I still own only one full-size 64GB Sandisk Extreme for backups and transfers as a companion to my XQD S series card. A gigantic initial investment to go all in and re-use for as long as the card still works.

Freelancers are always underpaid. I don't have the luxury of getting a 6 or 12 pack of SD cards or XQD cards willy nilly. You work with what you have and can afford, hence why the initial investment was so important. Slot to Slot Clip and Card copying works for me, because I don't want to connect my camera via USB all the time to a PC. (I'm slowly moving away from Windows, so I need maximum flexibility with clip management minus Windows and without purchasing ridiculously expensive and port limiting Macs.)

If I'm upgrading Sony cameras though, with this new development, my initial investment for the new Sony workflow will have to be steeper.

[Doug Jensen]

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

Slot to Slot Clip and Card copying works for me, because I don't want to connect my camera via USB all the time to a PC.

Who's connecting the camera to a computer???? That's even more lame than card to card copying.

An SD card reader is less than $20, and the last time I checked an XQD reader was about $35. Why would anyone in their right mind use the camera as a card reader?

On the rare times when I need to off-load cards on a shoot (usually on a road trip) I use Shotput Pro to make multiple backups to USB3.0 drives. They are cheap, fast, and reliable. So much better than just cloning a card. Jack, you really have to stop thinking about how things were done in the past and change your methods.

BTW, I disagree with your comment that freelancers are underpaid. Not the good ones.

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

XQD and SxS still is too expensive to archive for a single use

Correct me if I am wrong but unlike the fs7, the fs5 does not require more expensive XQD and SxS cards? If I look at what bitrates the fs5 shoots I"d say any regular sd card will do so not sure why you keep referring to those more expensive cards considering we are talking about the fs5 here?

Also you don't need to have a bag full of cards, if your clients expects footage on a card right after a shoot then just factor that cost into your invoice if it would mean buying extra cards, or rent a camera that has a in-camera copy capability and add the rent cost to your invoice, I really don't see what the problem is here.

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

I guess this is yet another generational gap where we're now facing the prospect of media prices finally being cheap enough to store on a shelf rather than you have to re-use it each time. (At least for SD cards)

In another thread you referred to the "generation gap" as the difference between youtube amateurs and professionals, not sure what you mean by it now?

[Jack Zhang]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

Correct me if I am wrong but unlike the fs7, the fs5 does not require more expensive XQD and SxS cards? If I look at what bitrates the fs5 shoots I"d say any regular sd card will do so not sure why you keep referring to those more expensive cards considering we are talking about the fs5 here?

I am considering the FS7 so this would be a completely valid concern since that camera uses XQD.

When I talk in context about this feature being gone, it's going to be gone from ALL current and future Sony cameras, for which some still use expensive media. I'm not talking solely about the FS5.

And yes, I am getting a Nexto DI device to offload cards if I eventually move to use the FS7 or a cheaper 1'' 4K 60p fixed lens camera in the HXR-NX100 form factor.

Originally Posted by Noa Put

In another thread you referred to the "generation gap" as the difference between youtube amateurs and professionals, not sure what you mean by it now?

Freelancers usually don't have the money after initial investment, but have tons of time. They can wait for a file copy, but their initial investment in cards stays with them and they re-use them till they need to be replaced. When cards were super expensive, freelancers hold on to expensive memory cards like they were their babies. Episodic has tons of money, but zero-tolerance for downtime. Card buying in bulk (AT ANY PRICE) is very feasible, so are ridiculously speced backup solutions and workflows.

As cards got cheaper, you have a new generation growing up on ridiculously cheap flash memory that know nothing about the pains of initial investment in recording media.

I'm also coming from a perspective of living in one of the top 5 most unaffordable cities in the world on Disability. I have Asperger's. I've been chronically unemployed for 3 years.

[Noa Put]

Considering you do have a limited budget I take it you are a freelancer? Since freelancers have tons of time then surely getting your footage to your client is also not so urgent then so you might as well do that at your home behind your pc. Like you said, "They can wait for a file copy" so what's the big deal then with that missing copy feature?

[Jack Zhang]

When I meant time, I meant the patience for an on site file copy. I'm often restricted to the field and run with one large capacity card per type. The XQD for my EX1R remains in camera, while the SD backup might be needed by the client right then and there. And I only have that one SD card matching the size of my XQD card that the client has to return. If I had to shoot directly on the SD card, I'd run into unbelievable reliability risk and that being my only high capacity SD card and me only having one MEAD-SD01, it's counter-intuitive. The EX1R also doesn't have dual record.

Things get interesting if they provide me with a client card AFTER the event concludes on site, then I have to copy the footage to it. With all future Sony cameras, I'd be screwed. I'll need that Nexto to save my behind. Most of my clients don't want to arrange additional meetings after an event has concluded unless absolutely necessary. (If you haven't guessed, I do event and convention videography)

I know stuff can so be remedied with dual record, but my current camera doesn't have that. In fact, the only purpose of 2 slots in all future Sony cameras is card spanning and dual record now. I've managed to live so long barely touching Clip Browser cause the copy function does everything I need for it to do. I only use Clip Browser to transfer to a card and have the camera VTR rendered clips and edits on a card.

I'm moving away from the PC as my initial file transfer location. Windows is getting kind of ridiculous. Mac likes spewing DS_Store files on the card if your media has no write protect, (which XQD doesn't!) and Vanilla Linux out of the box has no exFAT support. (Plus Catalyst and any Sony suite software will not run on Linux)

If you're reading this and thinking "What a mess this guy runs..." That's my Asperger's. I'm terrible at communicating through negotiation, advertising skills, and cold calling. I excel at the actual skill of camera operating though.

[Noa Put]

I'm moving away from the PC as my initial file transfer location. Windows is getting kind of ridiculous.

Why is that? I have been transferring data from sd cards to a pc every since I got my first dslr, a 550d, from windows xp up to windows 7 without a problem.