Sony PXW-FS5 - Initial User Impressions

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Jeroen Wolf

You cannot expect 4K shot on a consumer card to look like 4K shot on 'pro' cards. XAVC-I vs XAVC-L in 4K (or 10 bit vs 8 bit) is a massive difference.

The cards don't have any impact on the image quality, I shoot 12 bit raw onto a sandisc sdxc card, these little cards can also support high bitrates, one difference in image quality between the fs5/7 is the used codec.

[Ray Lee]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

The cards don't have any impact on the image quality, I shoot 12 bit raw onto a sandisc sdxc card, these little cards can also support high bitrates, one difference in image quality between the fs5/7 is the used codec.

If SD can take the bandwidth then why would Sony bother using XQD cards in FS7? Just seems like they would have sold twice as many FS7 cameras with the added $2000 in media costs

[Noa Put]

Would you care to explain how the type of card has an impact on image quality? If I had to guess I'd say the XQD cards just like the P2 cards from Panasonic are build for reliability to support, in Sony's case, the very high bitrates, not to gain massive differences in IQ like Jeroen stated. The card is only carrying the data it receives but it doesn't make the image look any better.

[Ray Lee]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

Would you care to explain how the type of card has an impact on image quality? If I had to guess I'd say the XQD cards just like the P2 cards from Panasonic are build for reliability, not to gain massive differences in IQ like Jeroen stated.

I can't explain it, thats why I asked. I just always thought SD couldn't handle the bandwidth of the bigger codecs and found your post interesting. Never mind really doesn't matter

[Noa Put]

I have got a 95MB/s sandisc extreme pro card that can deal with 220mbs prores and CinemaDNG RAW from the bmpcc, I just checked to see that Samsung already has cards that support 280MB/s so 3 times faster then the card I"m currently using, I"m not good in doing math but my guess would be they are fast enough to keep up with the 600mbs codecs the fs7 has. It might also be they are borderline usable which made Sony design a even faster card to make sure the camera doesn't stop recording if the card can't keep up.

[Jeroen Wolf]

My understanding was that the XQD cards are much faster than SD cards. 200 MB/s for the Lexar vs 95 MB/s for the Sandisk Extreme Pro. (which were sold to me a few weeks ago as the fastest SD cards available- I believed him...)

Anyway, you get the point. Whether it's the codec, card, bitrate or some unidentified digital mindboggle- the quality of 4K on the FS5 does not come close to what's produced by the FS7.

[Noa Put]

The fastest I know of are not the 95mbs cards but the 280mbs SanDisk 64GB Extreme PRO SDXC UHS-II cards that do 280 MB/s read and 250 MB/s write but there might be faster, dunno. I do get your point about the fs7 being better then the fs5 IQ wise since you seemed to have owned both so I am not arguing about that, I was only trying to make a point that the card itself doesn't make the image better, it only captures the data.

[Jody Arnott]

Noa is right of course. The card itself has no impact on image quality, it simply captures the data. Video is stored digitally; 0s and 1s. Those 0s and 1s will be captured exactly the same on a $200 professional SD card or a $10 consumer SD card (assuming both can keep up with the bitrate).

[Ray Lee]

Originally Posted by Jody Arnott

Noa is right of course. The card itself has no impact on image quality, it simply captures the data. Video is stored digitally; 0s and 1s. Those 0s and 1s will be captured exactly the same on a $200 professional SD card or a $10 consumer SD card (assuming both can keep up with the bitrate).

I read this as a discussion about bandwidth of media types not that one looks better than the other with exact the same data recorded to it.

[Jeroen Wolf]

And that's of course what I meant when I talked about 'consumer' cards vs 'pro' cards: speed or bandwidth, Ray. On another note, I can' t imagine the QXD cards are so much more expensive just because they're merely ' more robust'.

[Noa Put]

They are not that more expensive, a 64gb 280mbs sandisc card is 130 dollar and a 64gb 440mbs lexar card is 203 dollar and a sony one is 260 dollar. Given the higher supported bitrate I"d say the lexar is normal priced and for the sony one you are probably paying extra for the name as well.

[Wacharapong Chiowanich]

Originally Posted by Christopher Young

Hi All ~

A colleague has just flicked this through to me. More issues raising their heads on the FS5. Have yet to fully understand all the ramifications in this report. Will be downloading the footage and pixel peeping it.

Sony FS5 user reports artifact issues triggered by changing exposure, ND. Visible on HDMI output

Thoughts?

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

This certainly doesn't look good. These noise-like artifacts are even more noticeable than any edge noise/tearing samples posted online. Even more worrisome is this happens with the use of the camera's variable ND control, a headline feature of the FS5. No longer in the realm of pixel peeing geeks, anyone who has normal eyesight can see them now.

[Christopher Young]

It really has nothing to do with bit rate as a 90MB write card can handle 720Mbps, likewise a 45MB card can handle 360Mbps. As Noa said any type of card if it has the capacity and write speed will be able to handle FS7 bit rates that go up to 600Mbps.

Some time back Sony outlined why they went with XQD. They stated that the algorithm used to write the data to the XQD is much more sophisticated than that used by the SD card standard. That being so Sony claim that the likelihood of a total card corruption is far less likely. In the event of a a whole of card failure or a partial data corruption Sony claim that their own propriety data recovery software algorithm is vastly more capable of recovering the data files from XQD cards than the best of SD card recovery software available for SD cards including their own. Sony also claim that the wear leveling technique used in XQD cards is way more advanced than that laid down by the SD standard.

I've also been told by a recovery outfit who recover data from HDDs, cards and various other media that the problem of recovery from Ex-Fat SDXC cards is more complex and often less successful. The reason given for this is that in the SDHC Fat 32 file system there is a 2GB file limit, such as we see in AVCHD, and each file gets closed when that 2GB limit is reached. Whereas the XAVC format be it L or I can be written in one continuous file that on long shoots can be way in excess of 2GB. What was indicated to me was that a failure for one of these large files to close properly can make its recovery pretty difficult. Whereas the in the Fat 32 system each file is closed at its 2GB limit and generally these files can be recovered. In the worst case case you may lose up to around ten minutes in AVCD if the last file is unrecoverable should it be corrupted.

Sony's latest file recovery is available at the following URL. Nothing is guaranteed but this software is optimized for Sony cards not other brands as Sony has its own proprietary way, as do SanDisk, of writing to the cards.

Sony Global - Memory Media Portal - Memory Card File Rescue Version 3.2

More of a background on the benefits claimed by Sony for XQD technology can be found here:

Sony Global - Memory Media & External Hard Drive Portal - Sony XQD™ Memory Card

A point of interest, I haven't be able to confirm if this was because one card was a Sony SDXC and the other was a SanDisk SDXC but this was the situation. An unmanned X70 was recording in simultaneous mode to both cards covering a safety wide shot of a seminar. Unfortunately its battery died. Later I put a new battery on the camera and got the info screen prompting a data base recovery. I proceeded with that and the Sony card was recovered and all the data was fine. The data base recovery attempt on the SanDisk failed. All the data on that card was lost. I didn't bother trying to recover it as I already had the recovered data on the Sony card. Question? Is the data recovery mode in Sony cameras specifically optimized for Sony cards? I'm beginning to believe it is. Since then I just keep buying Sony cards. It's probably all in the mind as I have no empirical proof but I'm feeling more secure with the Sony cards. Plus Sony can't turn around and say "Ah! But you weren't using Sony cards were you." :))

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

[Jody Arnott]

Originally Posted by Ray Lee

I read this as a discussion about bandwidth of media types not that one looks better than the other with exact the same data recorded to it.

In that case I misread. Apologies.

[Andy Wilkinson]

Moving on, I see there is a web report from someone who has spoken to Sony that the FS5 V1.2 firmware will include an option for having Auto Exposure via the Variable ND.

I speculated about this possibility in the review I posted yesterday about the FS5 and Letus Helix Jr. Could be a very useful feature - having a controlled DOF in changing light could be great for some fast moving run-n-gun situations. Some other goodies coming too - GPS being enabled, improved Zebras and a mention of the raw output etc...but release date is yet to be announced.

I won't post the source here - as its not direct from Sony - at least not yet.