New Sony PXW-FS5

[Jack Zhang]

Originally Posted by David Heath

I suspect the lack of 60p won't be too big a hardship. And by the time 4K 60p (or certainly QFHD 60p) starts to become more in demand, expect a whole new raft of cameras to be coming out.

Meaning we are still on the bleeding edge of 4K acquisition. Remember those who bought HDMI 1.4a monitors? Early adopters that are now facing early planned obsolescence.

[Tom Gresham]

Well, I ordered two FS5 packages (with the lens) last Friday -- the day it was announced.

Perfect? Haven't seen that camera in 50 years of looking. ;)

Good for what I do? Yep!

Gonna come up short on some things? I imagine so, but I just don't care.

The images look good, the cameras are easy to shoot, I can run audio into them, I can use them in the studio, I can shoot interviews in UHD framed wide so I can cut in for that closeup (second camera) look, etc., etc. Mostly they will be shot outside at events and at shoots we create. Currently shooting XF105s, XS305s, A7ii, and FS700.

Sometimes "good enough" really is.


Or, "The enemy of good is an attempt at perfect." ;)

[Jack Zhang]

When "good enough" is all you can accept, some think of that as admitting of defeat.

My biggest pet peeve in both video gaming and video acquisition is those that think 30p is good enough cause they can't tell the difference, and those that say the eye can't see above 24fps. (YES IT CAN. Not as whole images but it can sense higher frame rates in the form of temporal data.)

If I'm only gonna get 4K30p, I'd much rather get the MFT 4K camera coming soon from engineers from Ambarella, the people that manufacturer the GoPro in China: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...le-lens-camera

IMO, 30p cannot be taken seriously anymore. YouTube will move to supporting 4K 60p so there is no reason soon to limit yourself to 30p. And like I said, for nature feature production with BBC and Discovery, your footage from the FS5 if it's not via the RAW upgrade will be instantly rejected since it doesn't comply with 4K 60p.

[Tom Gresham]

" When 'good enough' is all you can accept, some think of that as admitting of defeat."

Hardly. Our TV series run on networks which have no plans to go 4K. We are cranking out two 30-minute episodes a week during the busy season, for two series, plus a digital series (14 episodes) where we'll run 6 to 9 cameras at a time. Lots of editing on that sucker.

I could spend more on cameras, and that money would be completely wasted. These shows are not evergreen. They will run, and then they are done. No need to "future proof" them.

Not cinema. Just TV. Providing employment for several people, entertaining a lot of folks, and making the shows as good as the time/budget/advertising will allow.

Way back in my magazine photography and editing days, in my first job as assistant editor (1975), the managing editor explained it this way. "We never get the issue to the point we would really like. We do as much as we can, but then we have to send it to the printer." Same with TV. It has to go to the network on a certain day, even when you know that if you had another week it would be better.

Many times, "good enough" is all you get.

[Jack Zhang]

Yes, 100% freelancing vs time constrained contract based work are 101% different.

A sole proprietorship cares more about quality and less often about time and budget since most of the time it's personal investment into the quality of the product that's being produced. When you know what works, you save up to go for it.

For me, 60p is uncompromisable by now. I have clients nagging me to get a 1080p 60p camera and my EX1R can't do that. Then again, my final output is to the web (where there's now proper 1080p 60p distribution channels in the form of YouTube)

I know the US Reality TV acquisition standard is 1080 30p, so for those time rushed environments, it's just familiar territory with fast turnaround time.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

When "good enough" is all you can accept, some think of that as admitting of defeat.

Hmmm - in which case the entire feature film industry is admitting defeat.....?

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

My biggest pet peeve in both video gaming and video acquisition is those that think 30p is good enough cause they can't tell the difference, and those that say the eye can't see above 24fps. (YES IT CAN. Not as whole images but it can sense higher frame rates in the form of temporal data.).......IMO, 30p cannot be taken seriously anymore.

Is anybody really saying they can't see the difference? I thought it was more the opposite - that the 24p aficionados actively PREFER the look of 24p - at least for genres such as features?

I actually have sympathy with you - 24/25p puts constraints on production such as panning speed, and even then can lead to jerkiness. But realistically, 1080p/50 and 4K/24(25)p in a camera of this price level are going to satisfy the vast majority of potential users at the moment, aren't they? Does Tom even need the 4K abilities at all?

Both exceed all current broadcast formats, the former in progressive frame rate, the latter in spatial resolution. Most current UK TV (even at the high end) is still being shot 1080i/25 or 1080p/25, even with far higher end cameras.

[Jack Zhang]

David, there's both. Those that can't see the difference and those that swear by 24p.

The video gaming community has been arguing against artificial frame rate limits for years, and it's one of the most heated debates to this day, cause some console video game players say they can't sense framerate cause they're so used to 30p.

The reason why I didn't go for a GH4 was I was waiting for the next-gen with 60p. Here's hoping that doesn't have a massive crop factor problem like the DVX200.

[Glen Vandermolen]

Jack, the FS5 doesn't, and won't do 4K60P, and nothing's going to change that. This camera is not for you, obviously. Spend some more money and get the excellent FS7, for one example, if you require 4K60P.
Heck, even my little HC-X1000 does 4K60P, although it wouldn't pass muster for the big league networks.

I think part of the lack of 4K60P at broadcast 200Mbps is Sony's decision to use cheaper SD cards. This is more of a budget camera, it would seem. If you need more, Sony offers other cameras that will do the job.

The rest of us will decide on our own if we value 4K60P enough to pass on this camera, or if we're content with this limitation. This does not mean we're admitting defeat, it just means it's not a big deal in our workflow. Personally, I have yet to use 1080/60P in any of my productions, much less 4K60P, but that's hardly a failure. My broadcast clients are very happy with good ol' 1080/30P-60i.

Yes, lack of 4K60P does limit the FS5 for some applications, but it seems it will do just fine in many others. My biggest concern is its lack of a Timecode in/out port. Even the DVX200 has one. I'll decide if that's enough of a reason to buy or not to buy. And if the XAVC-L HD codec is robust enough for HD broadcast standards (I think it is).

But don't forget, soon this little camera will output 4K Raw! That should satisfy everyone's needs.

I understand your disappointment in the FS5's lack of internal 4K60P, but nothing's going to change that. It is what it is.

[Jack Zhang]

A little disappointment is a huge understatement when my clients pressure me into shooting 60p all the time.

The 5K price point being considered "budget" is what really peeves me off. With the DVX200, you'd expect something around that price range to have this by now. If the crop factor wasn't so bad, I would have gone with the DVX200. And they use UHS-I U3 cards, not even UHS-II. Sony is so focused on pushing XQD they don't give a single chance to SD cards for higher bitrates.

My definition of Budget is the GH4 crowd, and the people getting the new crop of Ambarella powered MFT 4K cameras. (DJI's adopting the same tech for MFT 4K drone cameras) If I only want 30p, I get a GH4. But I'm beyond the point where my clients will be satisfied with 30p.

I absolutely hate when it's so close to being perfect, but then there's that one deal breaker that makes you so frustrated, sad, and all the worst emotions all at the same time.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen

I think part of the lack of 4K60P at broadcast 200Mbps is Sony's decision to use cheaper SD cards. This is more of a budget camera, it would seem. If you need more, Sony offers other cameras that will do the job.

I agree that the SD card decision may be why they are limiting the bitrate, but 4K at 60p is a separate issue with a long-GOP codec. It's the I-frames that devour most of the bitrate, and if you keep to (say) 2 per sec (so double the GOP length), 60p doesn't need much extra bitrate than 30p.

Fully agree with the rest of your post.

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

A little disappointment is a huge understatement when my clients pressure me into shooting 60p all the time.

60p, maybe..... but 60p at 4K (or QFHD)? If in that market, I really think they need to have the budgets to go into a higher band. And 4Kp60 is one thing - the image is only as good as the front end, and if that system is so significant it really needs a camera of higher fundamental standard, at least going into FS7, F5 territory.

[Jack Zhang]

There can still be a 1'' sensor fixed lens camera with 4K 60p. I don't know why you all are fixated on the FS7 being a "required higher tier" in terms of hardware.

The 1'' replacement for the Z100 would be a blessing, if it's outfitted with a good fixed lens.

Super35 and FF aren't the only sensor sizes, people.

[Wacharapong Chiowanich]

I think in the case of Sony, limiting the FS5 to UHD/30p is done for the reason of product (or market) segmentation as much as certain hardware limitations. The company are known to do similar thing with their other lines of products. Good for them in this digital videography age that a good percentage of their customers appreciate, and can make better use of those slower frame rates. It's certainly easier, and cheaper, for them to make products that fit those needs.

[Jack Zhang]

Those that say HFR left a bad taste in their mouth likely are the same people in favor of slow frame rates. By your logic, the majority of the market favors "filmic" look rather than realistic. That is not the future. If this were the case, NHK would make 8K and keep 24 frames. They aren't. They're moving to 60 frames and 120 frames a second, going for realism rather than retaining a filmic look.

I will beat this to death, but my clients request 60p, and to say "No, I can't do 60p" devalues my services.

[Ron Evans]

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

There can still be a 1'' sensor fixed lens camera with 4K 60p. I don't know why you all are fixated on the FS7 being a "required higher tier" in terms of hardware.

The 1'' replacement for the Z100 would be a blessing, if it's outfitted with a good fixed lens.

Super35 and FF aren't the only sensor sizes, people.

I might agree with you Jack but my experience between my FDR-AX100 with the 1" sensor and the NX30U with a 1/3" sensor show little performance difference in practice in lower light for example. It is the lens I think that makes the difference. I too shoot 60P for realism ( though my NX5U is still 60i all my other cameras shoot 60P in HD, AX100, NX30U, CX700 and the FDR-AX1 at QFHD ) A 1" sensor with a proportionally performing lens would be great but I fear may be really expensive even for a 1" sensor to get a fast f1.6 like the 1/3" sensor use. The NX5U seems to still have the low light advantage with my collection since its pixels are much larger than the others though it is noisier with not having the latest technology. My FDR-AX1 of course uses much the same 20x lens but its pixel size is so small in comparison the low light performance is the worst of the family !!! My use for QFHD is to shoot a full stage view from the back of the hall, fixed , no movement so no need for a zoom lens other than to frame the stage. A small fast, wide zoom would have been perfect and I had hoped Sony would make an E-mount replacement for my FDR-AX1, sort of an EA50 in QFHD. Maybe some time !! Leaving off 60P in the FS5 may be due to the technology in the camera but Sony certainly have the technology available so then it must be a marketing decision. Maybe the NX family will introduce the product we want !!! An NX100 4k60P to SDXC U3 cards might just do the trick for me and provide competition for the DVX200 !!! Sony have no competitor to the DVX200, FDR-AX1 discontinued so I expect the PXW-Z100 will follow soon too.

Ron Evans

[John Wiley]

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

A little disappointment is a huge understatement when my clients pressure me into shooting 60p all the time.

The 5K price point being considered "budget" is what really peeves me off. With the DVX200, you'd expect something around that price range to have this by now. If the crop factor wasn't so bad, I would have gone with the DVX200.

Keep in mind that Canon's offering in this price range has only just introduced 60p @ 1080, and has no 4K at all. And that particular camera's predecessor was flying off the shelves even though it only had HD @ 24/30p. These companies know their market and they also know that they cannot please everyone all of the time. If you fall into the minority who aren't happy with this camera, and it doesn't deliver what your clients demand, then there are plenty of other offerings out there.