New Sony PXW-FS5

Jack Zhang · November 6th, 2015, 10:33 AM

Slightly off topic, but had to share.

Just chatted about how to process the temporal motion of 1080i into high quality 1080p 60fps for YouTube audiences and the discussion immediately went to how "Why are professionals still recording interlaced?" and "Not a single modern camera should record interlaced."

As another key, another friend in the discussion still wanted 60 frames progressive temporal motion and blames 1080i as a "legacy" format and that it's obsolete and outdated...

With 4K 60 frames delayed by lack of ASIC processing logic in the energy efficent/lower cost market, and 1080p60 not a broadcast standard, how do you say as a professional why you can't record in 1080p 60 frames a second when consumer technology has leapfrogged broadcast backbones? You see the tough position I'm in where the "popular standard" is dictated by the pricing sweet spot and that is now unfortunately 4K 30p.

In a few years, you will be frowned upon for having a 4K 30p camera. Just like right now, you are frowned upon for having a 1080i camera when all the consumer tech has leapfrogged it.

$5000 is not and will never be an appropriate price point if you're limited to 30p. I said it before and I'll say it again. I hate having to explain how to de-interlace to people that expect a full progressive workflow.

Mike Watson · November 6th, 2015, 05:16 PM

We get it. You want 4k60p. This camera doesn't have it.

Tim Polster · November 7th, 2015, 08:48 AM

Jack, I feel your pain but I think you are mixing too many genres. Consumer will never be broadcast but broadcast is slowly losing its grip. My approach is why do I want to have to shoot in any given format? Match the framerate for the best end objective. The resolution is kind of secondary imho.

All of the hype up of 4k is making me nauseous, Consumers get hung up on the numbers or megapixels and resolution because the marketers make it out to be the big deal. When in the end, it really only works if the camera gets plugged directly into a TV. Outside of that there is not much throughout the delivery chain that will keep it truly "4k". Maybe someday but not yet. So trying to appease these spec-focused people is kind of a fools errand, at least from a professional point of view. Imho 1080p will be relevant for many years. I have customers that get wowed by 720p... Just tell them quality is more important than quantity.

To your post, why can't you shoot in 1080p60? If you are shooting for a broadcast show then you would not be talking to consumers for your shooting format. And the opposite applies if you were shooting a skateboard video. As professionals, we are always thinking about delivery, where consumers are thinking about acquisition and having fun. So mix the two. That is the beauty of progressive formats. Shoot in 1080p60 and deliver in another format.

There are cameras out and coming out that shoot 4k60p. I guess the Fs5 is not on the list but do you have clients that are paying you to shoot in 4k or 4k60p? If not then view this era as still in transition where these cameras are the height of 1080p acquisition with a dabble into 4k acquisition. Takes a lot of pressure off. If you do have paying 4k clients then you can charge accordingly for being on the leading edge to buy or rent a camera that fits the goals.

When I see the encoding times for 4k material I want to wait just for Intel to make some faster processors! 1080p to mp4 is long enough.

Ron Evans · November 7th, 2015, 12:10 PM

I understand Jacks point of view for 4K60P ( UHD ) if the desired picture quality is smooth motion just like 60i. Same temporal motion so the equivalent for HD or 4K(UHD) of 60i is 60P. If one wants 4K( UHD ) to crop and pan/zoom to 1080HD then to maintain that smooth motion one would need to start with 4K60p. Which is my need for acquisition with absolutely no intention of 4K ( UHD ) final export in the foreseeable future. Used this way on a 1080 timeline, it is possible to pan and zoom ( to a HD image ) in precise fashion just not possible in manual mode during the shoot. I have a FDR-AX1 and this approach works just fine but not in all lighting conditions. I too would like a camera ( with the same sort of specs ) but with a better sensor. The DVX200 is close but is handicapped by not having a good wide angle when in UHD 60P mode, the very point the camera will be used most of the time for me.

Ron Evans

Jack Zhang · November 9th, 2015, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Polster

To your post, why can't you shoot in 1080p60? If you are shooting for a broadcast show then you would not be talking to consumers for your shooting format. And the opposite applies if you were shooting a skateboard video. As professionals, we are always thinking about delivery, where consumers are thinking about acquisition and having fun. So mix the two. That is the beauty of progressive formats. Shoot in 1080p60 and deliver in another format.

Because my equipment was from before there was a proper broadcast quality codec for 1080p60, and was an industry powerhouse when it came out in 2009. I love XDCAM EX, but I have to restrict myself to 1080i if I want the temporal motion of 60i and still retain 1080 horizontal lines.

To solve my problems for YouTube, I process 1080i first in FFmpeg using "-vf yadif=1" This adds to encode time, but produces a really high quality result. The objection my friends have was why not have native progressive and save this hassle? Cause the camera's too old to to do it and Broadcast chose not to adopt 1080p60 in time for my camera. It's so frustrating cause it's totally not a valid excuse for broadcast not to adopt 1080p60 at this point, but they're opting to skip straight to 4K60p... So there's this gaping hole in broadcast standards that nobody is ever going to use and will be instant vaporware. What adds to the frustration is YouTube filled in that gap recently, but no professional is going to standardize a posting process for web services into something like a SMPTE or ISO standard.

Walter Brokx · November 9th, 2015, 05:49 AM

Jack, you worry too much about techno-blabla almost no client understands.
I shoot 1080p25 (I'm in Europe) all the time. Depending on the project, also with an EX1R.
No client ever said to me: "Too bad it isn't as smooth as 50i."

It's sometimes easy to forget, but only people into filmmaking are pixelpeepers.
Clients don't care about such info.
They want great videos that makes them feel good, make the phone ring or sell their products.
Working on camera, editing and storytelling skills will do more for your business than dreaming and complaining about a format your camera doesn't shoot or overcomplicating your workflow while most people don't notice the difference.

I have total peace with 25fps :-)
As soon the FS5 can be rented, I'll be testing it for sure!

I've have one question (completely sidetracking the topic):
if I need a filmmaker/videographer in Canada: why should I pick you?

Tom Gresham · November 9th, 2015, 09:36 AM

Okay, I know it's probably a dumb question . . . but . . . I have a shelf full of Nikon glass from the last 40 years. I've used some of it on the FS700 for several years. Works great.

Now that I have two FS5 cameras on order, I'm thinking about getting some Canon glass so I can use the autofocus (at times) option.

Question: Will the Tokina AT-X 11-16 autofocus on the FS5? Which adaptor do I need? I have one Metabones (don't have it here to check the model) we use sometimes when a freelance videographer we hire prefers to use his Canon glass. I'm just not sure what I need to get autofocus to work on the FS5.

Thanks for putting up with the basic question.

Mike Watson · November 9th, 2015, 11:10 AM

I think the official answer is that we don't know yet. Last I heard, the Metabones adapters worked pretty well with Canon glass and so-so with 3rd party glass. Until you compare your exact lens with the same Metabones and a particular camera, I do not think there is a way to tell.

Is it the end of November yet? I'm antsy.

Tom Gresham · November 9th, 2015, 01:12 PM

<Is it the end of November yet? I'm antsy.>

I know what you mean! Looking forward to getting them. I did get the kit lens with both bodies. I also have adaptors for Canon and Nikon lenses, so we'll be good from the beginning. Just trying to figure out how to maximize the utility of the FS5.

Tom Gresham · November 9th, 2015, 01:13 PM

<Is it the end of November yet? I'm antsy.>

I know what you mean! Looking forward to getting them. I did get the kit lens with both bodies. I also have adaptors for Canon, Nikon and Leica M lenses, so we'll be good from the beginning. Just trying to figure out how to maximize the utility of the FS5.

Hmmm. Wish there were an adaptor for using the Fuji X lenses on the E mount.

David Heath · November 9th, 2015, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

......Broadcast chose not to adopt 1080p60 in time for my camera. It's so frustrating cause it's totally not a valid excuse for broadcast not to adopt 1080p60 at this point, but they're opting to skip straight to 4K60p... So there's this gaping hole in broadcast standards ............

Jack, what you have to appreciate is that as far as broadcast is concerned, standards are not set lightly, and once they are a change is a really big issue.

It's all down to legacy issues. At any time, there will be literally millions of receivers in a country - every one of them expecting to receive a signal adhering to certain defined standards. If a broadcaster puts something out that doesn't meet the spec - it doesn't get seen. So whilst I appreciate your basic point ("it would be better if 1080p/60(50) was transmitted than 1080i/30(25)" ) - there is absolutely no point in any broadcaster doing such if no receiver on the market can make use of it.

That may seem an excuse for inertia, but advancement does happen - just don't think it can be a light decision when any broadcaster has to consider the millions of receivers any change may affect - effectively rendering them obsolete. It's also likely to lead to a period when major channels need to be simulcast on the new and old standards - as in the UK at the moment all the major channels are HD, but they are also simulcast in SD. (And it's not that long since analogue transmissions were switched off, ending the digital/analogue simulcasting.) And because a specification change has such big implications, it's sensible to not do incremental changes often.

Hence I'm in full agreement with the decision to leapfrog 1080p/50 and wait until 4K standards are set before making the next change. I actually think it's more likely to be 2160p/100(120) than 60p, and incorporate higher dynamic range and bitdepth standards as well, but that remains to be seen. (Note that setting such defines the MINIMUM requirements all receivers have to meet - a box specced to such should also be capable of decoding such as lower framerates, and resolutions such as 50p, 25p, and HD resolutions. The same as a current HD broadcast receiver will also receive SD.)

Yes, you may have a point if you say it's a shame the current spec doesn't include 1080p/50(60), and yes, I'd agree. But at some point a line had to be drawn, a standard finalised, and waiting for technology to mature sufficiently to include 50p would have meant a significant delay to the start of HD broadcasting. It wasn't simply the decoding chips in the receiver, or bandwidth issues (50p doesn't need much more bandwidth than 25p in a long-GOP system) but the availability at the time of studio equipment, and don't forget that a 50p uncompressed signal is 3Gbs, as opposed to the 1.5Gbs of 1080i/25 or 1080p/25. That has big implications for such as SDI cabling.

Walter Brokx · November 10th, 2015, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

What am I supposed to say? Stop asking for 60p and get out?
.........................

Yes, if clients don't want to pay you tell them "get outta here!"

If they want you to make Lord of the Rings part 4, they will have to pay for it.
If they want 60p, you tell them: "That can be done, but it will cost you this..."
If they say: "I only want to/can pay this....", you say: "In that case I would be losing money doing this job and since I can't ask the supermarket to give me money to use there products I can't afford to pay you to let me work for you." and point out was actually is possible (if there is something possible for that budget): "However, what I can do with that budget is:....."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

Sorry, the "30p is fine" argument is one that really pisses me off, both in video gaming and video production.

Why does it piss you off?

In the real world it is good enough for most clients.
And I can tell you, you won't get more jobs or clients because you can shoot 60p.
Ask yourself: would my showreel look better and attract more clients if it was shot in 60p?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

When "good enough" is all you can accept, some think of that as admitting of defeat.
.................................

Perfect exists in a perfect world :-p
Often 'good enough' really is good enough.
While you wait for the perfect camera, everybody else is working on their projects...

Mike Watson · November 10th, 2015, 02:45 PM

Also, keep in mind, once 60p is available in your price range, 120p (and 5k, or 6k, or 8k) will be available at 50% more than your price range, and you will covet that instead of 60p.

If you look back at the annals of history of videography, never has so much been possible at so little cost. Don't focus on the lack of an obcure technical spec. Focus on the possibilities.

Dave Sperling · November 10th, 2015, 06:43 PM

Funny thing,
Last time a client requested (and I delivered) a shoot in 1080/60p it turned out that the edit system that was being used couldn't handle the 60p. So everything had to be transcoded to a format they could accept!

Jack Zhang · November 10th, 2015, 08:05 PM

Walter, so you're basically telling a fresh graduate that I have to be a dick in order to get the gigs I'm supposed to get? I work with conventions that run entirely on volunteer staff, so to ask money of them is like being the biggest asshole to them and meaning I would instantly be shunned.

I tried that, I tried to swap a unnecessary VideoHub with a ATEM 1 M/E 4K by telling someone to purchase the equipment I actually need, and you know what the rest of my convention staff did? They shunned me. They're like "What a dick for trying to say what equipment someone else should buy..." and my relationship with these conventions needs to be kept cause that's my only unpaid work at the moment.

Those that can deal without networking to get gigs can find it so much easier, but ALL of my gigs are through networking. I ruin those, I have zero gigs and all the effort I took to get at least SOME work would be for not.

I HAVE NO OTHER WORK.

November 6th, 2015, 10:33 AM	#151
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: New Sony PXW-FS5 Slightly off topic, but had to share. Just chatted about how to process the temporal motion of 1080i into high quality 1080p 60fps for YouTube audiences and the discussion immediately went to how "Why are professionals still recording interlaced?" and "Not a single modern camera should record interlaced." As another key, another friend in the discussion still wanted 60 frames progressive temporal motion and blames 1080i as a "legacy" format and that it's obsolete and outdated... With 4K 60 frames delayed by lack of ASIC processing logic in the energy efficent/lower cost market, and 1080p60 not a broadcast standard, how do you say as a professional why you can't record in 1080p 60 frames a second when consumer technology has leapfrogged broadcast backbones? You see the tough position I'm in where the "popular standard" is dictated by the pricing sweet spot and that is now unfortunately 4K 30p. In a few years, you will be frowned upon for having a 4K 30p camera. Just like right now, you are frowned upon for having a 1080i camera when all the consumer tech has leapfrogged it. $5000 is not and will never be an appropriate price point if you're limited to 30p. I said it before and I'll say it again. I hate having to explain how to de-interlace to people that expect a full progressive workflow.

November 6th, 2015, 05:16 PM	#152
Mike Watson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,082	Re: New Sony PXW-FS5 We get it. You want 4k60p. This camera doesn't have it.

November 7th, 2015, 08:48 AM	#153
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Re: New Sony PXW-FS5 Jack, I feel your pain but I think you are mixing too many genres. Consumer will never be broadcast but broadcast is slowly losing its grip. My approach is why do I want to have to shoot in any given format? Match the framerate for the best end objective. The resolution is kind of secondary imho. All of the hype up of 4k is making me nauseous, Consumers get hung up on the numbers or megapixels and resolution because the marketers make it out to be the big deal. When in the end, it really only works if the camera gets plugged directly into a TV. Outside of that there is not much throughout the delivery chain that will keep it truly "4k". Maybe someday but not yet. So trying to appease these spec-focused people is kind of a fools errand, at least from a professional point of view. Imho 1080p will be relevant for many years. I have customers that get wowed by 720p... Just tell them quality is more important than quantity. To your post, why can't you shoot in 1080p60? If you are shooting for a broadcast show then you would not be talking to consumers for your shooting format. And the opposite applies if you were shooting a skateboard video. As professionals, we are always thinking about delivery, where consumers are thinking about acquisition and having fun. So mix the two. That is the beauty of progressive formats. Shoot in 1080p60 and deliver in another format. There are cameras out and coming out that shoot 4k60p. I guess the Fs5 is not on the list but do you have clients that are paying you to shoot in 4k or 4k60p? If not then view this era as still in transition where these cameras are the height of 1080p acquisition with a dabble into 4k acquisition. Takes a lot of pressure off. If you do have paying 4k clients then you can charge accordingly for being on the leading edge to buy or rent a camera that fits the goals. When I see the encoding times for 4k material I want to wait just for Intel to make some faster processors! 1080p to mp4 is long enough.

November 7th, 2015, 12:10 PM	#154
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,222	Re: New Sony PXW-FS5 I understand Jacks point of view for 4K60P ( UHD ) if the desired picture quality is smooth motion just like 60i. Same temporal motion so the equivalent for HD or 4K(UHD) of 60i is 60P. If one wants 4K( UHD ) to crop and pan/zoom to 1080HD then to maintain that smooth motion one would need to start with 4K60p. Which is my need for acquisition with absolutely no intention of 4K ( UHD ) final export in the foreseeable future. Used this way on a 1080 timeline, it is possible to pan and zoom ( to a HD image ) in precise fashion just not possible in manual mode during the shoot. I have a FDR-AX1 and this approach works just fine but not in all lighting conditions. I too would like a camera ( with the same sort of specs ) but with a better sensor. The DVX200 is close but is handicapped by not having a good wide angle when in UHD 60P mode, the very point the camera will be used most of the time for me. Ron Evans

November 9th, 2015, 05:49 AM	#156
Walter Brokx Major Player Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Maassluis, The Netherlands Posts: 294	Re: New Sony PXW-FS5 Jack, you worry too much about techno-blabla almost no client understands. I shoot 1080p25 (I'm in Europe) all the time. Depending on the project, also with an EX1R. No client ever said to me: "Too bad it isn't as smooth as 50i." It's sometimes easy to forget, but only people into filmmaking are pixelpeepers. Clients don't care about such info. They want great videos that makes them feel good, make the phone ring or sell their products. Working on camera, editing and storytelling skills will do more for your business than dreaming and complaining about a format your camera doesn't shoot or overcomplicating your workflow while most people don't notice the difference. I have total peace with 25fps :-) As soon the FS5 can be rented, I'll be testing it for sure! I've have one question (completely sidetracking the topic): if I need a filmmaker/videographer in Canada: why should I pick you? __________________ Brainstormnavigator searching for the hole in the sky..... Audiovisual Designer (NL) - http://www.brokxmedia.nl

November 9th, 2015, 09:36 AM	#157
Tom Gresham Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Covington, Louisiana Posts: 179	Re: New Sony PXW-FS5 Okay, I know it's probably a dumb question . . . but . . . I have a shelf full of Nikon glass from the last 40 years. I've used some of it on the FS700 for several years. Works great. Now that I have two FS5 cameras on order, I'm thinking about getting some Canon glass so I can use the autofocus (at times) option. Question: Will the Tokina AT-X 11-16 autofocus on the FS5? Which adaptor do I need? I have one Metabones (don't have it here to check the model) we use sometimes when a freelance videographer we hire prefers to use his Canon glass. I'm just not sure what I need to get autofocus to work on the FS5. Thanks for putting up with the basic question.

November 9th, 2015, 11:10 AM	#158
Mike Watson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,082	Re: New Sony PXW-FS5 I think the official answer is that we don't know yet. Last I heard, the Metabones adapters worked pretty well with Canon glass and so-so with 3rd party glass. Until you compare your exact lens with the same Metabones and a particular camera, I do not think there is a way to tell. Is it the end of November yet? I'm antsy.

November 9th, 2015, 01:12 PM	#159
Tom Gresham Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Covington, Louisiana Posts: 179	Re: New Sony PXW-FS5 <Is it the end of November yet? I'm antsy.> I know what you mean! Looking forward to getting them. I did get the kit lens with both bodies. I also have adaptors for Canon and Nikon lenses, so we'll be good from the beginning. Just trying to figure out how to maximize the utility of the FS5.

November 9th, 2015, 01:13 PM	#160
Tom Gresham Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Covington, Louisiana Posts: 179	Re: New Sony PXW-FS5 <Is it the end of November yet? I'm antsy.> I know what you mean! Looking forward to getting them. I did get the kit lens with both bodies. I also have adaptors for Canon, Nikon and Leica M lenses, so we'll be good from the beginning. Just trying to figure out how to maximize the utility of the FS5. Hmmm. Wish there were an adaptor for using the Fuji X lenses on the E mount.

November 10th, 2015, 02:45 PM	#163
Mike Watson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,082	Re: New Sony PXW-FS5 Also, keep in mind, once 60p is available in your price range, 120p (and 5k, or 6k, or 8k) will be available at 50% more than your price range, and you will covet that instead of 60p. If you look back at the annals of history of videography, never has so much been possible at so little cost. Don't focus on the lack of an obcure technical spec. Focus on the possibilities.

November 10th, 2015, 06:43 PM	#164
Dave Sperling Major Player Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Tinton Falls, NJ Posts: 780	Re: New Sony PXW-FS5 Funny thing, Last time a client requested (and I delivered) a shoot in 1080/60p it turned out that the edit system that was being used couldn't handle the 60p. So everything had to be transcoded to a format they could accept!

November 10th, 2015, 08:05 PM	#165
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: New Sony PXW-FS5 Walter, so you're basically telling a fresh graduate that I have to be a dick in order to get the gigs I'm supposed to get? I work with conventions that run entirely on volunteer staff, so to ask money of them is like being the biggest asshole to them and meaning I would instantly be shunned. I tried that, I tried to swap a unnecessary VideoHub with a ATEM 1 M/E 4K by telling someone to purchase the equipment I actually need, and you know what the rest of my convention staff did? They shunned me. They're like "What a dick for trying to say what equipment someone else should buy..." and my relationship with these conventions needs to be kept cause that's my only unpaid work at the moment. Those that can deal without networking to get gigs can find it so much easier, but ALL of my gigs are through networking. I ruin those, I have zero gigs and all the effort I took to get at least SOME work would be for not. I HAVE NO OTHER WORK.