Help, F3 match with EX1/3 at DVinfo.net

Andreas Andreou · January 28th, 2012, 08:22 AM

Hi
We currently use EX1 & EX3 with a custom PP using CG1.
We have a project coming up which will include some shallow depth of field shots that our EX's and stock lens cant achieve, so we are looking at hiring in for the shoot a couple of F3s (probably with Sony primes)

Allowing for the sensitivity and noise difference between the F3 & EX3, can I enquire if the F3s PP, cine-gamma and colour matrix be matched with our existing EX1/3?
We will be shooting in controlled/manageable lighting to internal SxS
We wouldl prefer to try and match the Picture Profiles as much as possible in camera and fine tune if required in post.

We have hired and used P+S tecnick and Primes with the EX3 successfully in the past but due to the weight and ergonomics I would prefer to avoid this set up if I can.

Any seasoned help and advise would be great.
Many thanks
Andy

Peter Ford · January 28th, 2012, 09:39 AM

I'm in pretty much the same situation, so i'm all ears on this thread.

My compnay's got an EX1r an EX3 and we've just bought an F3 and a set of CP2's

At the moment, they all have subtly different colours and looks. I've love to cook up a profile for each to get them in the same ballpark, for multicam shoots.

Sadly I don't really know wnough about colour profiles and colour theory.. wish I did.

In the long run I was hoping to hire someone who knows what they're doing, to come in for a day with a scope and some charts and come up with some profiles that meet my requirements.

Adrian Vedder · January 28th, 2012, 10:43 AM

This should not be very hard to achieve.I believe Alister goes through the subject in his site (PMW F3 Picture Profile Smorgasbord. | XDCAM-USER.COM) that's a series of picture profiles for the F3, but somewhere around there he discusses matching both cameras.

Still, you can come very, very close by fooling around a little and do the rest in post. I'm pretty sure that site will give you guys the answer.

George Griswold · January 28th, 2012, 01:26 PM

I have been able to match these two cameras using a Chroma Du Monde 24 chart and a Tektronix WFM 500 scope. I can't get the settings up today, but will do it in the next day or so. The biggest swing that I saw was in the green area that the F3 seems more sensitive to. On location the F3 has shown a green hue that I had to dial out on the spot. More Later... George

Andreas Andreou · January 29th, 2012, 03:57 AM

Hi George,

Eager to see your settings, did you bring down the detail level for the F3 to match?
XD CAM USER is a great resource for F3 & EX3 PP but couldn’t find much relating to shared PP between the two cameras.

Hope Doug Jensen is reading!

Peter how are the CP2's performing?

Thanks
Andy

Doug Jensen · January 29th, 2012, 06:12 AM

Sorry, I'm reading and lurking but don't have the answer for you because I have never had any reason to match those cameras. But I'm sure I could get them pretty close if I had an hour or so to work on them. The key, as George says, is to have a real waveform monitor and vectorscope. I have a DCS ChromaDuMonde and a Leader LV-5330 that would take all the guess work out it.
Hopefully George's PPs will work for you, and then you're all set.

Ron Aerts · January 29th, 2012, 07:13 AM

I'm in the same situation having EX1/1R/3 en F3/CP2's
had also used EX350 in multicam with EX3. they were very hard to match the green thing mentioned.
Less problems but still some with matching F3 and EX3 on the fly. So I am also curious what you all have.
Multicam grading in post is a hard if you only record/broadcast the switched signal. Better to match the profiles before the job.

Alister Chapman · January 29th, 2012, 07:44 AM

One issue when trying to match the F3 to EX1's etc is that different lenses will give different looks. So a profile that matches an F3 with CP2's to an EX1 won't necessarily work with DSLR lenses or Cooke's etc.

I find that if you use the cinema matrix on the F3 and on the EX's they are close. I'm up in the arctic at the moment so I can't help right now. I'm home at the end of the week and I'll see if I can get them dialled in.

George Griswold · January 29th, 2012, 11:41 AM

I use Zeiss CP.1s on the F3. I had to change the settings on the fly a few weeks ago, so I will re-match. I was thinking of matching them using the 50 or 85mm lens which are the two I use most often. Maybe this week I can re-shoot the tests. I have the F3, EX-3 and PDW-700 all matched.
The on the fly adjustment was to dial out a green tint on a behind the scenes movie set... that was really pronounced on the F3. They had HMI's going through "windows" on a set with some warming applied. I never found out if they had minus green on the lights, but the F3 went green like crazy while the EX-3 gave a good rendition. This suggests that the F3 may not respond to different light sources like the EX-3 does... perhaps a non-linear situation. Obviously best to match on each location... luckily I had my DSC chart and scope with me so it was a pretty quick fix on set.
I will try to do a 5600 and 3200 set of numbers.

Andreas Andreou · January 29th, 2012, 01:24 PM

Thanks for input so far guys,
Interesting to read about the green ting, I’ve not come across this before.
We also intend to use the 50 & 85 Sony lens for the F3 and stay with the stock for EX3.
On a separate note, in addition to balancing cameras, would you guys’ advice on shooting a few seconds of a Macbeth colour chart at the start of every shot for each camera for referencing colour in post?

Thanks again
Andy

George Griswold · January 29th, 2012, 04:22 PM

Shooting any color reference is better than none. Shooting a DSC Chroma du Monde chart is best because it can be used with a vectorscope in post to calibrate "true color". The charts don't come cheap, but depending on your type of work having one might be worth it.

Andreas Andreou · January 29th, 2012, 06:47 PM

Yeh, I agree
I've put off purchasing a DSC chart and scope for over a year now, so maybe now is the time to invest.
Look forward to seeing yours and Alister’s settings.

Thanks
Andy

ministry of video - video design, production and editing company based in london

George Griswold · February 3rd, 2012, 01:55 AM

This week blew up.. didn't get to the matching project. I can do the color stuff, however Alister seems to be the pro on the detail, aperture and crispening settings.

Refer to this for that info:
What is ?Crispening? and how does it effect the picture? | XDCAM-USER.COM

Have to edit tomorrow. More later. George

Andreas Andreou · February 3rd, 2012, 09:34 AM

Thanks for the link George.
Look forward to the colour settings when you can.
Andy

Richard Moore · March 7th, 2012, 10:24 AM

Hello,
I would also love to see some settings on matching the F3/ FS100 to the EX-1 or EX-3.
I don't have any color cards or scope and this would be most appreciated.

Rick

January 28th, 2012, 08:22 AM	#1
Andreas Andreou Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Athens, Greece and London UK Posts: 52	Help, F3 match with EX1/3 Hi We currently use EX1 & EX3 with a custom PP using CG1. We have a project coming up which will include some shallow depth of field shots that our EX's and stock lens cant achieve, so we are looking at hiring in for the shoot a couple of F3s (probably with Sony primes) Allowing for the sensitivity and noise difference between the F3 & EX3, can I enquire if the F3s PP, cine-gamma and colour matrix be matched with our existing EX1/3? We will be shooting in controlled/manageable lighting to internal SxS We wouldl prefer to try and match the Picture Profiles as much as possible in camera and fine tune if required in post. We have hired and used P+S tecnick and Primes with the EX3 successfully in the past but due to the weight and ergonomics I would prefer to avoid this set up if I can. Any seasoned help and advise would be great. Many thanks Andy

January 28th, 2012, 09:39 AM	#2
Peter Ford Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: London, uk Posts: 99	Re: Help, F3 match with EX1/3 I'm in pretty much the same situation, so i'm all ears on this thread. My compnay's got an EX1r an EX3 and we've just bought an F3 and a set of CP2's At the moment, they all have subtly different colours and looks. I've love to cook up a profile for each to get them in the same ballpark, for multicam shoots. Sadly I don't really know wnough about colour profiles and colour theory.. wish I did. In the long run I was hoping to hire someone who knows what they're doing, to come in for a day with a scope and some charts and come up with some profiles that meet my requirements.

January 28th, 2012, 10:43 AM	#3
Adrian Vedder New Boot Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 23	Re: Help, F3 match with EX1/3 This should not be very hard to achieve.I believe Alister goes through the subject in his site (PMW F3 Picture Profile Smorgasbord. \| XDCAM-USER.COM) that's a series of picture profiles for the F3, but somewhere around there he discusses matching both cameras. Still, you can come very, very close by fooling around a little and do the rest in post. I'm pretty sure that site will give you guys the answer.

January 28th, 2012, 01:26 PM	#4
George Griswold Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 218	Re: Help, F3 match with EX1/3 I have been able to match these two cameras using a Chroma Du Monde 24 chart and a Tektronix WFM 500 scope. I can't get the settings up today, but will do it in the next day or so. The biggest swing that I saw was in the green area that the F3 seems more sensitive to. On location the F3 has shown a green hue that I had to dial out on the spot. More Later... George __________________ George T. Griswold, Jr. www.videonow.info New Orleans

January 29th, 2012, 03:57 AM	#5
Andreas Andreou Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Athens, Greece and London UK Posts: 52	Re: Help, F3 match with EX1/3 Hi George, Eager to see your settings, did you bring down the detail level for the F3 to match? XD CAM USER is a great resource for F3 & EX3 PP but couldn’t find much relating to shared PP between the two cameras. Hope Doug Jensen is reading! Peter how are the CP2's performing? Thanks Andy

January 29th, 2012, 06:12 AM	#6
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,441	Re: Help, F3 match with EX1/3 Sorry, I'm reading and lurking but don't have the answer for you because I have never had any reason to match those cameras. But I'm sure I could get them pretty close if I had an hour or so to work on them. The key, as George says, is to have a real waveform monitor and vectorscope. I have a DCS ChromaDuMonde and a Leader LV-5330 that would take all the guess work out it. Hopefully George's PPs will work for you, and then you're all set. __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

January 29th, 2012, 07:13 AM	#7
Ron Aerts Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Drachten, Netherlands Posts: 179	Re: Help, F3 match with EX1/3 I'm in the same situation having EX1/1R/3 en F3/CP2's had also used EX350 in multicam with EX3. they were very hard to match the green thing mentioned. Less problems but still some with matching F3 and EX3 on the fly. So I am also curious what you all have. Multicam grading in post is a hard if you only record/broadcast the switched signal. Better to match the profiles before the job.

January 29th, 2012, 07:44 AM	#8
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	Re: Help, F3 match with EX1/3 One issue when trying to match the F3 to EX1's etc is that different lenses will give different looks. So a profile that matches an F3 with CP2's to an EX1 won't necessarily work with DSLR lenses or Cooke's etc. I find that if you use the cinema matrix on the F3 and on the EX's they are close. I'm up in the arctic at the moment so I can't help right now. I'm home at the end of the week and I'll see if I can get them dialled in. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

January 29th, 2012, 11:41 AM	#9
George Griswold Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 218	Re: Help, F3 match with EX1/3 I use Zeiss CP.1s on the F3. I had to change the settings on the fly a few weeks ago, so I will re-match. I was thinking of matching them using the 50 or 85mm lens which are the two I use most often. Maybe this week I can re-shoot the tests. I have the F3, EX-3 and PDW-700 all matched. The on the fly adjustment was to dial out a green tint on a behind the scenes movie set... that was really pronounced on the F3. They had HMI's going through "windows" on a set with some warming applied. I never found out if they had minus green on the lights, but the F3 went green like crazy while the EX-3 gave a good rendition. This suggests that the F3 may not respond to different light sources like the EX-3 does... perhaps a non-linear situation. Obviously best to match on each location... luckily I had my DSC chart and scope with me so it was a pretty quick fix on set. I will try to do a 5600 and 3200 set of numbers. __________________ George T. Griswold, Jr. www.videonow.info New Orleans

January 29th, 2012, 01:24 PM	#10
Andreas Andreou Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Athens, Greece and London UK Posts: 52	Re: Help, F3 match with EX1/3 Thanks for input so far guys, Interesting to read about the green ting, I’ve not come across this before. We also intend to use the 50 & 85 Sony lens for the F3 and stay with the stock for EX3. On a separate note, in addition to balancing cameras, would you guys’ advice on shooting a few seconds of a Macbeth colour chart at the start of every shot for each camera for referencing colour in post? Thanks again Andy

January 29th, 2012, 04:22 PM	#11
George Griswold Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 218	Re: Help, F3 match with EX1/3 Shooting any color reference is better than none. Shooting a DSC Chroma du Monde chart is best because it can be used with a vectorscope in post to calibrate "true color". The charts don't come cheap, but depending on your type of work having one might be worth it. __________________ George T. Griswold, Jr. www.videonow.info New Orleans

January 29th, 2012, 06:47 PM	#12
Andreas Andreou Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Athens, Greece and London UK Posts: 52	Re: Help, F3 match with EX1/3 Yeh, I agree I've put off purchasing a DSC chart and scope for over a year now, so maybe now is the time to invest. Look forward to seeing yours and Alister’s settings. Thanks Andy ministry of video - video design, production and editing company based in london

February 3rd, 2012, 01:55 AM	#13
George Griswold Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 218	Re: Help, F3 match with EX1/3 This week blew up.. didn't get to the matching project. I can do the color stuff, however Alister seems to be the pro on the detail, aperture and crispening settings. Refer to this for that info: What is ?Crispening? and how does it effect the picture? \| XDCAM-USER.COM Have to edit tomorrow. More later. George __________________ George T. Griswold, Jr. www.videonow.info New Orleans

February 3rd, 2012, 09:34 AM	#14
Andreas Andreou Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Athens, Greece and London UK Posts: 52	Re: Help, F3 match with EX1/3 Thanks for the link George. Look forward to the colour settings when you can. Andy

March 7th, 2012, 10:24 AM	#15
Richard Moore New Boot Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Louisville Posts: 5	Re: Help, F3 match with EX1/3 Hello, I would also love to see some settings on matching the F3/ FS100 to the EX-1 or EX-3. I don't have any color cards or scope and this would be most appreciated. Rick