What 10-bit 4:2:2 rec for F3 to Vegas? at DVinfo.net

Ken Hull · January 23rd, 2012, 02:06 AM

I'm considering the F3 over the C300, since the C300 only does 8-bit, while the F3 offers 10-bit 4:2:2 out of the HD-SDI. But then I have to find a 10-bit 4:2:2 recorder. Most seem to be Mac-centric (require Mac formatting, and create Quicktime files). Since I'm using Sony Vegas Pro on a Windows 7 machine, I'd prefer something more Windows / Vegas friendly. I know the Convergent Design nanoFlash creates files which my Vegas NLE likes. But the nanoFlash is strictly 8-bit. The Convergent Design Gemini might do the trick .... but $6000??? Anyone have a suggestion?

- Ken

Dan Keaton · January 23rd, 2012, 08:24 AM

Dear Ken,

Yes, the nanoFlash is 8-Bit.

The Sony F3 is an exceptional low-noise camera.

The nanoFlash, using Sony's 6th or 7th generation MPEG-2 encoder/decoder, using XDCam 422 or XDCam Ex codec, is a very low noise recorder. It is lower in noise than the ProRes recorders.

Since the F3 provides such a low noise image to the nanoFlash, the nanoFlash does not have to use its compression horsepower to compress the image and noise.

The nanoFlash can use all of its compression horsepower to compress the image.

The results are such that most experts call the images "Just Stunning".

You have the ability, with the nanoFlash to record at a true 280 Megabit per second, if you so desire.
And you have a very wide variety of bit-rates/flavor options.

Of course for the ultimate in image quality, you may use our Gemini 4:4:4.

Please feel free to call me, we provide 24/7 support every day of the year.

All of my numbers are listed at the bottom of this link.

Support | Convergent Design

Ron Wilk · January 23rd, 2012, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Hull

I'm considering the F3 over the C300, since the C300 only does 8-bit, while the F3 offers 10-bit 4:2:2 out of the HD-SDI. But then I have to find a 10-bit 4:2:2 recorder. Most seem to be Mac-centric (require Mac formatting, and create Quicktime files). Since I'm using Sony Vegas Pro on a Windows 7 machine, I'd prefer something more Windows / Vegas friendly. I know the Convergent Design nanoFlash creates files which my Vegas NLE likes. But the nanoFlash is strictly 8-bit. The Convergent Design Gemini might do the trick .... but $6000??? Anyone have a suggestion?

- Ken

Take a look at the Atmos Samurai ... 10bit 422 with—according the the website—Vegas compatibility. Records in ProRes and, in the near future, DnxHd.
I have been using the device with my F3 and Avid ingestion; it works beautifully.

Tom Bostick · January 23rd, 2012, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Hull

I'm considering the F3 over the C300, since the C300 only does 8-bit, while the F3 offers 10-bit 4:2:2 out of the HD-SDI. But then I have to find a 10-bit 4:2:2 recorder. Most seem to be Mac-centric (require Mac formatting, and create Quicktime files). Since I'm using Sony Vegas Pro on a Windows 7 machine, I'd prefer something more Windows / Vegas friendly. I know the Convergent Design nanoFlash creates files which my Vegas NLE likes. But the nanoFlash is strictly 8-bit. The Convergent Design Gemini might do the trick .... but $6000??? Anyone have a suggestion?

- Ken

ah Ken a man after my own heart as it were

I realize everyone has their own favorite NLE, but for me vegas is king

I Use it to edit almost everything

I have zero intent of switching to any other NLE

And thats where i run into the same annoying issues as you Ken

almost every external recorder (excepting the nanoflash) are mac based

I have actually contacted the atomos support team and while they didn't provide me a sample file to test

they did claim that the files from the samurai work in vegas

I love the diferent bitrates that the nanoflash offers, but like you said its only an 8 bit recorder

I see no reason to buy a recorder that isn't semi future proof

this leads me to the samurai, I just wish it was possible to get a file from it that had been imported through a pc as opposed to a mac, that way i could make sure that it worked before i spent the money

Doug Jensen · January 23rd, 2012, 03:09 PM

There's nothing special or unusual that I can see about files from the Samurai. If you can use ANY ProRes files in Vegas, then files from the Samurai shouldn't be any different than if they came from a Ki Pro Mini, Pix, Cinedeck, or whatever.

You just need to test any ProRes file to get your answers -- it doesn't need to come from a Samurai. And whether the file "came through" a Mac shouldn't matter either. When you ingest files from any of these recorders you're just copying files (usually via drag & drop) from the CF card or the SSD to a hard drive. The computer is not changing the files in any way.

Ken Hull · January 23rd, 2012, 03:22 PM

Thanks guys. I appreciate the input.
The reason I'm interested in 10-bit 4:2:2 is that I intend to do a lot of chroma key and grading in post. I know 4:4:4 would be even better, but there's a limit to my bank account.

Dan: I've read enough reviews to know that the Convergent Design recorders are really professional-grade equipment. When the Gemini came out, it was the answer to my dreams, except for the price tag. Is the 4:4:4 capability the main reason for the high price? If Convergent Design came out with a 10-bit 4:2:2 recorder with LCD screen for $3500, I would probably get it. BTW, I'm NOT talking about an LCD for focus or color check, just something so I can check that I did get a recording, and to check continuity (did the talent put down the prop before or after saying his line).

Ron and Tom: I am interested in the Samurai, but do I need to do Mac-formatting on the SSD drives? And as Tom says, it would be nice to have a file (preferably from a green screen shoot) to test in my NLE.

Doug: I see your website has several test files available. I'll investigate those this evening. Thank you.

- Ken

Doug Jensen · January 23rd, 2012, 03:27 PM

Here you go, 126 original, unmodified, files for you to try out:
PMW-F3 S-LOG & External Recorders Test Drive

None of these files came from a Samurai (I didn't get mine until last week) but the codecs represent EXACTLY what you'd get. You can compare 10-bit, 8-bit, 4:2:0, 4:2:2; 4:4:4, and many other variables and come to some conclusions before you decide what recorder and workflow to go with.

Also, you may be interested in watching this presentation I helped with last week at Rule.

Dave Sperling · January 23rd, 2012, 03:36 PM

Ken,
you might be better off asking about prores in vegas on the Sony Vegas forums.
I'm a Vegas user with an F3 and a NanoFlash, and I'm still happy with it. I do a lot of green screen (and blue screen) with the F3/Nano combination, and my clients have been uniformly extremely happy with the results. They use lots of different edit systems.
My feeling is that the big reason to upgrade to a 10bit recorder is for full range of color correction when shooting in s-log mode on the F3. And the best at this point looks like the Gemini
As to prores, I've edited from some prores source material in Vegas, though not a lot of it. I've heard that prores is a bad idea for large Vegas projects, but I can't confirm, never having done anything major with it.
Realize you won't be able to output from Vegas to ProRes.
I don't know about the drive formatting question, but I do have MacDrive on most of my computers, and I'm very happy with the way it works to allow my PCs to read/write to mac formatted drives. (I liked it enough to buy several licences, and feel it's well worth it to give my computers the added functionality)

Ron Wilk · January 23rd, 2012, 03:42 PM

Sorry, accidentally saved a blank post.

Ron Wilk · January 23rd, 2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Hull

Thanks guys. I appreciate the input.
The reason I'm interested in 10-bit 4:2:2 is that I intend to do a lot of chroma key and grading in post. I know 4:4:4 would be even better, but there's a limit to my bank account.

Dan: I've read enough reviews to know that the Convergent Design recorders are really professional-grade equipment. When the Gemini came out, it was the answer to my dreams, except for the price tag. Is the 4:4:4 capability the main reason for the high price? If Convergent Design came out with a 10-bit 4:2:2 recorder with LCD screen for $3500, I would probably get it. BTW, I'm NOT talking about an LCD for focus or color check, just something so I can check that I did get a recording, and to check continuity (did the talent put down the prop before or after saying his line).

Ron and Tom: I am interested in the Samurai, but do I need to do Mac-formatting on the SSD drives? And as Tom says, it would be nice to have a file (preferably from a green screen shoot) to test in my NLE.

Doug: I see your website has several test files available. I'll investigate those this evening. Thank you.

- Ken

Hi Ken,
The SSD is formatted in the Samurai. As Doug has indicated, if Vegas can read ProRes then the Samurai should be fine. I really love the little bugger. It's relatively light, has the monitor screen you desire and is triggered by the F3's record button. When Dnxhd becomes available it will be even better for my purposes. And there's the very reasonable price ...

Tom Bostick · January 23rd, 2012, 10:50 PM

ok so i just tried these pro res files

Digital Cinema - MAIN

and they import into vegas fine, they have no audio but i dont know if they were encoded with audio

Steve Kalle · January 24th, 2012, 03:13 PM

FYI, EVERY Pro Res recorder uses different encoding schemes so all PR files are slightly different AND have slightly different image quality. For example, the encoding scheme from FCP is the highest quality while inexpensive recorders like the Samurai are lesser quality.

I can say firsthand that it is easy to download from the Cinedeck and PIX240 to a PC. The only thing you should look out for is how the recorder is formatted. For example, the Aja Ki Pro Mini uses HFS+ which is Mac only and requires additional software on a PC to read the CF cards. The nanoFlash and Cindeck are FAT32 so any computer can read their files. The PIX240 is UDF so any computer can read its files.

While on the subject of external recorders, the PIX240 is the easiest of them all to setup and start recording while the Aja is the biggest PITA quickly followed by the Gemini. After reading about all of the problems with the Atomos recorders, I wouldn't use either of them for critical projects.

Ron Wilk · January 24th, 2012, 05:51 PM

A review of the various forums has revealed that all of the recorders have been subject to some degree of "new baby" hiccups. Serial firmware updates have been provided by most of the manufacturers to address those issues, and the Samurai is no different. While they did have an initial problem with audio when used with the F3, that appears to have been resolved with the latest firmware update. Even the venerable Gemini was lacking the ability to record audio at the time of its initial release—an alleged programming hurdle rather than a glitch. And I still see posts regarding issues with the now aged NanoFlash. As for the alleged various flavors of ProRes, I cannot comment since I am not a fan that codec, nor do I have the ability to make said comparisons. That said, I am using the Samurai version at the current time since it's the only flavor currently available for that device. For the money, I think that the Samurai is a wonderfully capable, camera mountable, lightweight box that proves one doesn't have to pay many thousands of dollars to record 10 bit 422 to an SSD (not sure about the reliability of mechanical HD's with this device). And when they release their DnxHd upgrade it should be even better, especially for those Avid users like myself. And in re "all of the problems" regarding the Atmos recorders, I did my due diligence and did not come across the multitude of issues your statement seems to suggest, other than a few mentions of "green clips," that only a several users have reported and have not experienced myself.

Steve Kimmel · January 24th, 2012, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

Here you go, 126 original, unmodified, files for you to try out:
PMW-F3 S-LOG & External Recorders Test Drive

I have these -- Highly recommended!

Duke Marsh · January 25th, 2012, 07:48 AM

I have a samurai and it formats as exFat. The drivers for Windows XP for exFat are free from Microsoft. I believe Win7 comes with them.

The Ki Pro Mini does require software like MacDrive for a PC to read their HFS formatted drives.

The Samurai uses a lot less power, runs longer and is capable of much longer recordings with SSD and SATA drives. The Ki Pro Mini is CF cards only, so higher media costs. (this never made much sense to me as an SSD is a bunch of CF card chips inside.)

The KPM has more professional audio (like XLR inputs) and up and down converts HDMI and SDI. Samurai is SDI only unless you buy a separate converter ~$390 or so.

When apple licenses prores they have standards. I've heard of people testing simultaneous recordings, capturing stills and doing 'difference' shots in photoshop with no differences showing. I don't have any reason to believe prores is different from different recorders.

Green clips were caused by people trying to use the A port before v1.31 firmware. It wasn't supposed to do 4.2.2 from A before that. Green frames seem to be caused by using unapproved drives that don't cashe properly or write fast enough. For instance Scorpio blue is bad, Scorpio black works great and is a shock resistant drive. (Many shock resistant drives are too slow.)

If the Nano could have been converted to 10 bit I'd have stayed with it. The Samurai is sort of the Nano of the 10 bit world power consumption and disk space - wise.

January 23rd, 2012, 02:06 AM	#1
Ken Hull Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 240	What 10-bit 4:2:2 rec for F3 to Vegas? I'm considering the F3 over the C300, since the C300 only does 8-bit, while the F3 offers 10-bit 4:2:2 out of the HD-SDI. But then I have to find a 10-bit 4:2:2 recorder. Most seem to be Mac-centric (require Mac formatting, and create Quicktime files). Since I'm using Sony Vegas Pro on a Windows 7 machine, I'd prefer something more Windows / Vegas friendly. I know the Convergent Design nanoFlash creates files which my Vegas NLE likes. But the nanoFlash is strictly 8-bit. The Convergent Design Gemini might do the trick .... but $6000??? Anyone have a suggestion? - Ken

January 23rd, 2012, 08:24 AM	#2
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Re: What 10-bit 4:2:2 rec for F3 to Vegas? Dear Ken, Yes, the nanoFlash is 8-Bit. The Sony F3 is an exceptional low-noise camera. The nanoFlash, using Sony's 6th or 7th generation MPEG-2 encoder/decoder, using XDCam 422 or XDCam Ex codec, is a very low noise recorder. It is lower in noise than the ProRes recorders. Since the F3 provides such a low noise image to the nanoFlash, the nanoFlash does not have to use its compression horsepower to compress the image and noise. The nanoFlash can use all of its compression horsepower to compress the image. The results are such that most experts call the images "Just Stunning". You have the ability, with the nanoFlash to record at a true 280 Megabit per second, if you so desire. And you have a very wide variety of bit-rates/flavor options. Of course for the ultimate in image quality, you may use our Gemini 4:4:4. Please feel free to call me, we provide 24/7 support every day of the year. All of my numbers are listed at the bottom of this link. Support \| Convergent Design __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 23rd, 2012, 03:09 PM	#5
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,442	Re: What 10-bit 4:2:2 rec for F3 to Vegas? There's nothing special or unusual that I can see about files from the Samurai. If you can use ANY ProRes files in Vegas, then files from the Samurai shouldn't be any different than if they came from a Ki Pro Mini, Pix, Cinedeck, or whatever. You just need to test any ProRes file to get your answers -- it doesn't need to come from a Samurai. And whether the file "came through" a Mac shouldn't matter either. When you ingest files from any of these recorders you're just copying files (usually via drag & drop) from the CF card or the SSD to a hard drive. The computer is not changing the files in any way. __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

January 23rd, 2012, 03:22 PM	#6
Ken Hull Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 240	Re: What 10-bit 4:2:2 rec for F3 to Vegas? Thanks guys. I appreciate the input. The reason I'm interested in 10-bit 4:2:2 is that I intend to do a lot of chroma key and grading in post. I know 4:4:4 would be even better, but there's a limit to my bank account. Dan: I've read enough reviews to know that the Convergent Design recorders are really professional-grade equipment. When the Gemini came out, it was the answer to my dreams, except for the price tag. Is the 4:4:4 capability the main reason for the high price? If Convergent Design came out with a 10-bit 4:2:2 recorder with LCD screen for $3500, I would probably get it. BTW, I'm NOT talking about an LCD for focus or color check, just something so I can check that I did get a recording, and to check continuity (did the talent put down the prop before or after saying his line). Ron and Tom: I am interested in the Samurai, but do I need to do Mac-formatting on the SSD drives? And as Tom says, it would be nice to have a file (preferably from a green screen shoot) to test in my NLE. Doug: I see your website has several test files available. I'll investigate those this evening. Thank you. - Ken

January 23rd, 2012, 03:27 PM	#7
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,442	Re: What 10-bit 4:2:2 rec for F3 to Vegas? Here you go, 126 original, unmodified, files for you to try out: PMW-F3 S-LOG & External Recorders Test Drive None of these files came from a Samurai (I didn't get mine until last week) but the codecs represent EXACTLY what you'd get. You can compare 10-bit, 8-bit, 4:2:0, 4:2:2; 4:4:4, and many other variables and come to some conclusions before you decide what recorder and workflow to go with. Also, you may be interested in watching this presentation I helped with last week at Rule. High-Quality External Recorders Revisited on 1.18.12 on Vimeo __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

January 23rd, 2012, 03:36 PM	#8
Dave Sperling Major Player Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Tinton Falls, NJ Posts: 780	Re: What 10-bit 4:2:2 rec for F3 to Vegas? Ken, you might be better off asking about prores in vegas on the Sony Vegas forums. I'm a Vegas user with an F3 and a NanoFlash, and I'm still happy with it. I do a lot of green screen (and blue screen) with the F3/Nano combination, and my clients have been uniformly extremely happy with the results. They use lots of different edit systems. My feeling is that the big reason to upgrade to a 10bit recorder is for full range of color correction when shooting in s-log mode on the F3. And the best at this point looks like the Gemini As to prores, I've edited from some prores source material in Vegas, though not a lot of it. I've heard that prores is a bad idea for large Vegas projects, but I can't confirm, never having done anything major with it. Realize you won't be able to output from Vegas to ProRes. I don't know about the drive formatting question, but I do have MacDrive on most of my computers, and I'm very happy with the way it works to allow my PCs to read/write to mac formatted drives. (I liked it enough to buy several licences, and feel it's well worth it to give my computers the added functionality)

January 23rd, 2012, 03:42 PM	#9
Ron Wilk Major Player Join Date: May 2009 Location: Parkland Florida Posts: 407	Re: What 10-bit 4:2:2 rec for F3 to Vegas? Sorry, accidentally saved a blank post. Last edited by Ron Wilk; January 23rd, 2012 at 05:39 PM.

January 23rd, 2012, 10:50 PM	#11
Tom Bostick Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Austin TX Posts: 292	Re: What 10-bit 4:2:2 rec for F3 to Vegas? ok so i just tried these pro res files Digital Cinema - MAIN and they import into vegas fine, they have no audio but i dont know if they were encoded with audio

January 24th, 2012, 03:13 PM	#12
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	Re: What 10-bit 4:2:2 rec for F3 to Vegas? FYI, EVERY Pro Res recorder uses different encoding schemes so all PR files are slightly different AND have slightly different image quality. For example, the encoding scheme from FCP is the highest quality while inexpensive recorders like the Samurai are lesser quality. I can say firsthand that it is easy to download from the Cinedeck and PIX240 to a PC. The only thing you should look out for is how the recorder is formatted. For example, the Aja Ki Pro Mini uses HFS+ which is Mac only and requires additional software on a PC to read the CF cards. The nanoFlash and Cindeck are FAT32 so any computer can read their files. The PIX240 is UDF so any computer can read its files. While on the subject of external recorders, the PIX240 is the easiest of them all to setup and start recording while the Aja is the biggest PITA quickly followed by the Gemini. After reading about all of the problems with the Atomos recorders, I wouldn't use either of them for critical projects.

January 24th, 2012, 05:51 PM	#13
Ron Wilk Major Player Join Date: May 2009 Location: Parkland Florida Posts: 407	Re: What 10-bit 4:2:2 rec for F3 to Vegas? A review of the various forums has revealed that all of the recorders have been subject to some degree of "new baby" hiccups. Serial firmware updates have been provided by most of the manufacturers to address those issues, and the Samurai is no different. While they did have an initial problem with audio when used with the F3, that appears to have been resolved with the latest firmware update. Even the venerable Gemini was lacking the ability to record audio at the time of its initial release—an alleged programming hurdle rather than a glitch. And I still see posts regarding issues with the now aged NanoFlash. As for the alleged various flavors of ProRes, I cannot comment since I am not a fan that codec, nor do I have the ability to make said comparisons. That said, I am using the Samurai version at the current time since it's the only flavor currently available for that device. For the money, I think that the Samurai is a wonderfully capable, camera mountable, lightweight box that proves one doesn't have to pay many thousands of dollars to record 10 bit 422 to an SSD (not sure about the reliability of mechanical HD's with this device). And when they release their DnxHd upgrade it should be even better, especially for those Avid users like myself. And in re "all of the problems" regarding the Atmos recorders, I did my due diligence and did not come across the multitude of issues your statement seems to suggest, other than a few mentions of "green clips," that only a several users have reported and have not experienced myself.

January 25th, 2012, 07:48 AM	#15
Duke Marsh Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: OC, CA Posts: 65	Re: What 10-bit 4:2:2 rec for F3 to Vegas? I have a samurai and it formats as exFat. The drivers for Windows XP for exFat are free from Microsoft. I believe Win7 comes with them. The Ki Pro Mini does require software like MacDrive for a PC to read their HFS formatted drives. The Samurai uses a lot less power, runs longer and is capable of much longer recordings with SSD and SATA drives. The Ki Pro Mini is CF cards only, so higher media costs. (this never made much sense to me as an SSD is a bunch of CF card chips inside.) The KPM has more professional audio (like XLR inputs) and up and down converts HDMI and SDI. Samurai is SDI only unless you buy a separate converter ~$390 or so. When apple licenses prores they have standards. I've heard of people testing simultaneous recordings, capturing stills and doing 'difference' shots in photoshop with no differences showing. I don't have any reason to believe prores is different from different recorders. Green clips were caused by people trying to use the A port before v1.31 firmware. It wasn't supposed to do 4.2.2 from A before that. Green frames seem to be caused by using unapproved drives that don't cashe properly or write fast enough. For instance Scorpio blue is bad, Scorpio black works great and is a shock resistant drive. (Many shock resistant drives are too slow.) If the Nano could have been converted to 10 bit I'd have stayed with it. The Samurai is sort of the Nano of the 10 bit world power consumption and disk space - wise.