F3 4:4:4 recording solution? Forget the gemini!

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Duke,

The Gemini 4:4:4, with the ARRIRAW Option will only be able to record ARRIRAW from ARRI cameras.

At this time, the Sony PMW-F3 does not have a RAW Option, thus, we can not record RAW from it.

[Duke Marsh]

I thought maybe the Gemini might be getting an ARRI-RAW codec. The Gemini records uncompressed now, and the fact that it doesn't process the signal allows it to record that huge stream of data.

Does the Gemini have enough processing power to ever do any sort of compression?

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Duke,

We have not announced compressed modes within the Gemini 4:4:4.

There are many reasons for this:

1. We do not want to be a company that always announces features; then it takes a long time to deliver.

2. We are working very hard on ARRIRAW (and this project is going extremely well).

3. There are technical hurdles in implementing compressed modes in our unit.
To do the very best job for our customers, we have to implement the codec from scratch.

4. We do not want to announce anything until we have proven that we can implement it.


Now, to answer your question, precisely as you wrote it:

"Does the Gemini have enough processing power to ever do any sort of compression?"

The answer is "Yes, Definitely".


Now, to be clear, the amount of processing power to do a codec, say DNxHD 36 is vastly different than doing a very high quality implementation of DNxHD, such as DNxHD 220x or their new 4:4:4 version.

We are seriously listening to our customers, and potential customers in their reqests for a compressed codec option inside the Gemini 4:4:4.

Please forgive me, but many have not realized the following, so we are trying to get the word out.

One can record full uncompressed, then instead of transferring the uncompressed footage to a computer, use the uncompessed footage for the "First Encode" to any codec, any flavor, any bit-rate, it is actually your choice.

And depending on your computer and hard disk drives, it can be a faster process.
On a decent speed computer with fast disk drives, it will be just a little slower than transferring full uncompressed. So, your mileage may vary depending on your comptuer.

And a final technical note:

The "First Encode" is technically identical to having a camera that can encode the full uncompressed data from the camera's sensor, into the codec implemented within the camera.

Most cameras (if not all) have built in just one codec and just a few flavors or bit-rates.

But, using the Gemini 4:4:4, you record the full uncompressed, then have your choice of most any codec during the "First Encode".

Any, if you decide to save the full uncompressed, you have the option to deliver, for example, ProRes to your client, and then later provide DNxHD or any other codec/flavor/bit-rate.

[Duke Marsh]

Dan,

I know you guys get the job done and pay great attention to upgrades. I loved all the multiple free firmware upgrades for my Nano that added many new features along the way. If the Nano had been able to be converted to 10 bit I'd have kept it as it would beat all the others.

I am greatly encouraged that the Gemini does have some processing power. I can understand how many could overlook that their data wrangler can do a first encode as they are importing, but tiny productions (most of us) don't have data wranglers or the time. That's when uncompressed.

When the Gemini does have some sort of compression scheme I'll certainly be giving it a second look as a way to get the most out of my camera.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Duke,

Thank you!

Please feel free to call me to discuss the nanoFlash or Gemini 4:4:4.

My numbers are at the bottom of this page.

Support | Convergent Design

[John Banovich]

Hi Steve,

We used both the Cinedeck RX and EX models recording in 4:4:4 uncompressed .MOV on the F3 with S-LOG (and in some cases only with a PP/Gamma control) and the .MXF on the 3700. Two projects were shot in July and one in September. As they were rental units (we were holding out for the Gemini 4:4:4) I can not definitively state which firmware versions were loaded.

We also found that longer records in warmer temperatures would cause the unit to over heat as the fan would cycle down once it started recording. The longer the fan ran between records, the quicker the batteries drained. Most of the time, we were shooting on location with out AC, so the ratio of Dionic 160 batteries on the F3 was approximately 2.5 to 1 and on the 3700 the ratio was approx 2 to 1 (partially due to the servo/zoom)

Hope that helps.

John Banovich, csc, BFM
Director/Field Producer/Cinematographer

[Steve Kimmel]

Thanks John, that does help.

When you say that the ratio of Dionic 160 batteries on the F3 was approximately 2.5 to 1, do you mean that you used 2.5 Dionics on the Cinedeck for every 1 needed for the F3 (i.e., you used separate batteries for each)? If so, how much run time would you estimate you got from a single Dionic on the Cinedeck?

Thanks again.

[John Banovich]

Hi Steve

Yes, it was in fact 2.5 Dionic 160 batteries on the Cinedeck for every 1 on the F3. Run time was dependant on a few factors but the biggest was fan running time. The longer the fan ran, the shorter the battery life. We were able to get close to 4 hours at the beginning of the day, but as the unit got hotter and the daytime temperature did as well, the batteries were only good for 2.5 hours max. (fan ran continuous)

Compared to the Gemini 4:4:4 were we get 6 hours (up to 7 in some cases) with a single Dionic 160 for BOTH the F3 and the Gemini. Another concern we had with the Cinedeck was the Windows based OS and the lack of processor/bus interface/connectivity.

I understand Sony has addressed the later issue with their SS-R1 (also .DPX available), unfortunately significantly more expensive.

John Banovich, csc, BFM
Director/Field Producer/Cinematographer

[Steve Kimmel]

Thanks John, again, for the very useful info.