Tests on F3 at DVinfo.net

Leonard Levy · March 21st, 2011, 03:38 PM

Any reaction from you guys who have the F3 to the ProVideo coalition tests:

ProVideo Coalition.com: Camera Log by Adam Wilt | Founder | Pro Cameras, HDV Camera, HD Camera, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, RED, Video Camera Reviews

They found lots of aliasing at high frequencies. Also still plenty of Far Red contamination.

Timur Civan · March 21st, 2011, 04:20 PM

its accurate however the aliasing is not an issue in the real world. It occurs on +1000 line repeating patters. That is a very difficult situation to find in nature. (I can barely think of any situations. where it would crop up other than shooting fine line ink drawings drawings for a Art Documentary, for example) Unlike a DSLR that begins color aliasing at +300 lines, very easily occurring in the real world. ( combed hair, herring bone jackets, city land scapes, bricks, tiles, straight lines and skin in a medium close up.)

Alistair chapman got a brick wall to alias on an F3, but since hasn't been able to reproduce it. must have been a fluke perfect storm scenario, between 420 codec, optical pattern width, and mix of colors.

Thierry Humeau · March 21st, 2011, 07:49 PM

I agree with Timur, reproducing this kind of moiré patern in a real life scenario is almost impossible. The reviewer(s) failed however to point out more serious issues with the AF100 which have been very well documented by BBC's camera guru, Alan Roberts.

1. The AF100 does not perform particalarly well in HD (ouch!)
2. This camera will not necessarily always deliver short depth of field, large aperture lenses must be used to achieve that. He is referring here to DOF being the same at comparable focal lengths between an AF100 at F2.8 and a 1/2" camera (EX1 or 3) at full aperture (F1.6).

Read the full report here:

http://thebrownings.name/WHP034/pdf/...onic_AF101.pdf

Thierry.

Simon Wood · March 22nd, 2011, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thierry Humeau

2. This camera will not necessarily always deliver short depth of field, large aperture lenses must be used to achieve that.

Thierry, is there a benchmark for large aperture lenses that will work with the camera (AF100) under most circumstances?
Would old photographic lenses from f2 to f1.4 do the job, or are we talking high speed cine primes or something?
Sorry to go off topic.

Timur Civan · March 22nd, 2011, 01:49 AM

I think im the only person that actually likes the AF100..... lol.

I think its a great cam. i like its resolution. its soft but sharp, organic even.

This is the ungraded AVCcam footage. I think it looks good.

Leonard Levy · March 22nd, 2011, 03:59 AM

Did you buy an AF100 also Timur?

By the way what do you mean by "organic". What large sensor cam isn't "organic"?
BTW I just bought Wayne's follow focus on your rec. I'm trusting you man!

Need a mattebox that takes vertical 4 x 5.6 grads though - looking like the Petroff.
Just got 28 thru 85 Zeiss ZF's and backing it up with 3 Nikon Zooms and a Tokina -11-16.
I think even an 18-200 Nikon for running around.

If my camera ever shows up I'll be ready. All I need is some work.

Lenny

Thierry Humeau · March 22nd, 2011, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Wood

Thierry, is there a benchmark for large aperture lenses that will work with the camera (AF100) under most circumstances?
Would old photographic lenses from f2 to f1.4 do the job, or are we talking high speed cine primes or something?
Sorry to go off topic.

I have not looked much into lenses availability for the AF100 but my understanding is that there are very few fast lenses available, especially on the wide end.

Thierry.

Noah Yuan-Vogel · March 22nd, 2011, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thierry Humeau

2. This camera will not necessarily always deliver short depth of field, large aperture lenses must be used to achieve that. He is referring here to DOF being the same at comparable focal lengths between an AF100 at F2.8 and a 1/2" camera (EX1 or 3) at full aperture (F1.6).

AF100 seems a little off topic in this forum, but Alan Robert's statement about a 1.5 stop difference in DOF between 1/2" and the AF100 does not sound right to me. Isn't it closer to 2.5-3 stops?

17.8mm / 6.97mm = 2.5x "crop factor" = >2.5 stop difference

Alister Chapman · March 23rd, 2011, 10:50 PM

I have seen the F3 aliasing on another shot, some mesh backed chairs. But it only occurred on one chair out of a whole room full when that chair was in pin sharp focus. I'm not particularly concerned about it as it requires a very high frequency repeating pattern that's in crisp focus, unlike my Canon DSLR which will aliase on just about any fixed pattern or texture.

Oleg Kalyan · March 24th, 2011, 12:24 AM

The footage from F3 from Japan looks from bad to ugly in all senses, terrible event, feel really sorry for Japanese people...
pretty bad chroma and highlights clipping, chroma moiré, if we talk about image quality, getting disappointed in the cam. Low light shots still look very good!
(Having AF100 for good light situations and F3 for low light? :)

Has Alan shot any footage, for himself or for the BBC? "Counting pixels" rarely represents real shooting, news, film or television, picture quality from human eye perception view point! Imho footage from AF100 looks more film like!

P.S. Adam Wilt, thank you for the test!

Nate Weaver · March 24th, 2011, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oleg Kalyan

The footage from F3 from Japan looks from bad to ugly [...]
pretty bad chroma and highlights clipping, chroma moiré, if we talk about image quality, getting disappointed in the cam. Low light shots still look very good!
(Having AF100 for good light situations and F3 for low light?

Allard, while being a talented documentarian, has made some exposure and camera setting choices that are unfortunate if you are trying to judge exposure latitude and overall image quality.

The camera is fine.

Brian Drysdale · March 24th, 2011, 02:07 AM

If you're shooting for news, or fast turn around television, you won't be using setting that make the most of the camera's dynamic range, just those settings that allow you to transmit the pictures without any colour correction or grading.

Thierry Humeau · March 24th, 2011, 06:16 AM

I would not based F3 image quality jugement on Vimeo videos but here are a few things to take in consideration. Because of his news network (Aljazeera English) requirement, Matt is filming in 50i (interlace) so, you don't see any of the progressive look. In addition, because of the constrain of news gathering and the need to travel light and work quickly, he is using a single lens, a Tamron 18-270mm F3.5/6.3. So shallow DOF and optical quality is quite compromised. I am sure we will see better F3 pics from Matt once he settles down a bit and goes back to production mode. I think his idea was to demonstrate that the F3 is versatile enough to be also used in breaking news. And even at F6.3, those sit downs interviews look pretty nice by news standards....

Thierry.

Leonard Levy · March 24th, 2011, 11:12 AM

We do lots of computer corporate stuff out here in San Francisco. I';m wondering if anyone has checked out aliasing and moire with computer screens or things like closeups of computer chips and boards.

By the way - picking my camera up today!!!! YES

Ryan Koo · March 29th, 2011, 02:08 AM

In one of the tests Adam mentions they're getting 12 stops of dynamic range from the F3. Considering Sony is claiming that S-Log brings gains of "up to 800% increase in dynamic range" or whatever their language was... doesn't this imply that the F3 will get as much as the RED EPIC/ARRI ALEXA? Even if they're referring to the F3's S-Log increase as compared to REC 709 with that figure, the fact that it's already showing 12 stops without S-Log is impressive, right? Haven't heard many people talking about it and am wondering what the expectations are with regards to DR once the $3300 firmware upgrade is applied.

March 21st, 2011, 03:38 PM	#1
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Tests on F3 Any reaction from you guys who have the F3 to the ProVideo coalition tests: ProVideo Coalition.com: Camera Log by Adam Wilt \| Founder \| Pro Cameras, HDV Camera, HD Camera, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, RED, Video Camera Reviews They found lots of aliasing at high frequencies. Also still plenty of Far Red contamination.

March 21st, 2011, 04:20 PM	#2
Timur Civan Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New York City Posts: 120	re: Tests on F3 its accurate however the aliasing is not an issue in the real world. It occurs on +1000 line repeating patters. That is a very difficult situation to find in nature. (I can barely think of any situations. where it would crop up other than shooting fine line ink drawings drawings for a Art Documentary, for example) Unlike a DSLR that begins color aliasing at +300 lines, very easily occurring in the real world. ( combed hair, herring bone jackets, city land scapes, bricks, tiles, straight lines and skin in a medium close up.) Alistair chapman got a brick wall to alias on an F3, but since hasn't been able to reproduce it. must have been a fluke perfect storm scenario, between 420 codec, optical pattern width, and mix of colors. __________________ Director of Photography - www.timurcivan.com Sony F3, Cooke lenses, sunny disposition.

March 21st, 2011, 07:49 PM	#3
Thierry Humeau Telecam Films Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Washington DC Posts: 723	re: Tests on F3 I agree with Timur, reproducing this kind of moiré patern in a real life scenario is almost impossible. The reviewer(s) failed however to point out more serious issues with the AF100 which have been very well documented by BBC's camera guru, Alan Roberts. 1. The AF100 does not perform particalarly well in HD (ouch!) 2. This camera will not necessarily always deliver short depth of field, large aperture lenses must be used to achieve that. He is referring here to DOF being the same at comparable focal lengths between an AF100 at F2.8 and a 1/2" camera (EX1 or 3) at full aperture (F1.6). Read the full report here: http://thebrownings.name/WHP034/pdf/...onic_AF101.pdf Thierry. __________________ Thierry Humeau, DoP Télécam Films www.telecamfilms.com

March 22nd, 2011, 01:49 AM	#5
Timur Civan Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New York City Posts: 120	re: Tests on F3 I think im the only person that actually likes the AF100..... lol. I think its a great cam. i like its resolution. its soft but sharp, organic even. "A Verse Before Dying" - Trailer on Vimeo This is the ungraded AVCcam footage. I think it looks good. __________________ Director of Photography - www.timurcivan.com Sony F3, Cooke lenses, sunny disposition.

March 22nd, 2011, 03:59 AM	#6
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	re: Tests on F3 Did you buy an AF100 also Timur? By the way what do you mean by "organic". What large sensor cam isn't "organic"? BTW I just bought Wayne's follow focus on your rec. I'm trusting you man! Need a mattebox that takes vertical 4 x 5.6 grads though - looking like the Petroff. Just got 28 thru 85 Zeiss ZF's and backing it up with 3 Nikon Zooms and a Tokina -11-16. I think even an 18-200 Nikon for running around. If my camera ever shows up I'll be ready. All I need is some work. Lenny

March 23rd, 2011, 10:50 PM	#9
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	Re: Tests on F3 I have seen the F3 aliasing on another shot, some mesh backed chairs. But it only occurred on one chair out of a whole room full when that chair was in pin sharp focus. I'm not particularly concerned about it as it requires a very high frequency repeating pattern that's in crisp focus, unlike my Canon DSLR which will aliase on just about any fixed pattern or texture. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

March 24th, 2011, 12:24 AM	#10
Oleg Kalyan Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: MOSCOW Posts: 860	Re: Tests on F3 The footage from F3 from Japan looks from bad to ugly in all senses, terrible event, feel really sorry for Japanese people... pretty bad chroma and highlights clipping, chroma moiré, if we talk about image quality, getting disappointed in the cam. Low light shots still look very good! (Having AF100 for good light situations and F3 for low light? :) A Lasting Impact on Vimeo Japan Earthquake, Natori, 14th March 2011 on Vimeo Japan Earthquake, Natori on Vimeo Has Alan shot any footage, for himself or for the BBC? "Counting pixels" rarely represents real shooting, news, film or television, picture quality from human eye perception view point! Imho footage from AF100 looks more film like! P.S. Adam Wilt, thank you for the test!

March 24th, 2011, 02:07 AM	#12
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Tests on F3 If you're shooting for news, or fast turn around television, you won't be using setting that make the most of the camera's dynamic range, just those settings that allow you to transmit the pictures without any colour correction or grading.

March 24th, 2011, 06:16 AM	#13
Thierry Humeau Telecam Films Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Washington DC Posts: 723	Re: Tests on F3 I would not based F3 image quality jugement on Vimeo videos but here are a few things to take in consideration. Because of his news network (Aljazeera English) requirement, Matt is filming in 50i (interlace) so, you don't see any of the progressive look. In addition, because of the constrain of news gathering and the need to travel light and work quickly, he is using a single lens, a Tamron 18-270mm F3.5/6.3. So shallow DOF and optical quality is quite compromised. I am sure we will see better F3 pics from Matt once he settles down a bit and goes back to production mode. I think his idea was to demonstrate that the F3 is versatile enough to be also used in breaking news. And even at F6.3, those sit downs interviews look pretty nice by news standards.... Thierry. __________________ Thierry Humeau, DoP Télécam Films www.telecamfilms.com

March 24th, 2011, 11:12 AM	#14
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Re: Tests on F3 We do lots of computer corporate stuff out here in San Francisco. I';m wondering if anyone has checked out aliasing and moire with computer screens or things like closeups of computer chips and boards. By the way - picking my camera up today!!!! YES

March 29th, 2011, 02:08 AM	#15
Ryan Koo Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 92	Re: Tests on F3 In one of the tests Adam mentions they're getting 12 stops of dynamic range from the F3. Considering Sony is claiming that S-Log brings gains of "up to 800% increase in dynamic range" or whatever their language was... doesn't this imply that the F3 will get as much as the RED EPIC/ARRI ALEXA? Even if they're referring to the F3's S-Log increase as compared to REC 709 with that figure, the fact that it's already showing 12 stops without S-Log is impressive, right? Haven't heard many people talking about it and am wondering what the expectations are with regards to DR once the $3300 firmware upgrade is applied.